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Brexit

Westministenders: Transition

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/07/2017 22:02

Last thread opener, it was all about the government buzz word being shown to listen at every opportunity.

Now transition is creeping in as people realise that no we can't just do a settlement, arrange a new trade deal with the EU and have a whole host of other deals in place in two years.

Who'd have thought.

We will be getting Brexit because we give in to threats of terrorism. Not quite getting how that takes back control.

But Brexit will be good. It will be glorious. And in the long term we will be better off for it.

Er ok.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
mathanxiety · 16/07/2017 20:19

I completely agree with you, Whatwouldrondo, wrt the insane focus on early literacy in the UK. It may be of interest that the research on which the UK policy of systematic phonics in Reception was based was done in the US, on a cohort of children who were at least a year older.

Another huge problem in the UK is the practice of setting at an age when children are starting to form their own identity.

mathanxiety · 16/07/2017 20:20

Gumpendorf, I agree with you that the ultimate aim of the Brexiteers is revolution and that therefore a cliff edge Brexit is extremely palatable to some.

StainlessSteelButtercup · 16/07/2017 20:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

howabout · 16/07/2017 20:53

Math did you read the link. If that was indeed the Finance Committee referred to in the article then it is no wonder it is ill-prepared for Brexit since its primary responsibility is the internal financing of the HoC.

OlennasWimple · 16/07/2017 20:57

pointy - you're right, my damn autocorrect is wrong Smile

HashiAsLarry · 16/07/2017 21:25

Don't know if this has been shared, not a bad if very concise summary:
FT

How ‘no deal’ could bring Britain to a halt

Food and drink, air travel and orchestras among those hit by worst-case Brexit scenario

Failure to agree a post Brexit transitional agreement between the EU and UK could see cross Channel trade grind to a halt.
Imagine the scenario. It has just turned midnight on 29 March 2019, and the Spirit of Britain ferry carrying a fleet of freight vehicles docks at the port of Calais. But instead of driving straight on to the motorway with no checks, the first lorry is stopped at a French customs post. For the driver and those behind him, it is not a happy experience.

The driver is now required to pay VAT on the goods in his truck, as well as import duties. Worse, the truck is carrying a consignment of lamb, and “food of animal origin” can only be imported into France from a non-EU country via a registered border inspection post. Calais is not one of these so after lengthy negotiations he is told to return home.

Back home, the skies are also quieter. As Britain has that day fallen out of the European open skies agreement and has not agreed access as a so-called third country, only domestic and non-EU flights can depart and land from British airports.

This is a scenario which would apply if the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal and on antagonistic terms with Brussels. It represents the worst case outcome in which the EU applies its standard rules to non-EU countries and does not agree to transitional arrangements to minimise disruption.

David Davis, the UK’s Brexit secretary, has expressed confidence that Britain will strike a deal with the EU which would provide a smooth path to new arrangements with Brussels rather than a disruptive change.

However, a no deal scenario would be disruptive because of the laws governing Britain’s relationship with the EU would cease immediately. “Calling it a legal vacuum would be underplaying where we would be,” says Malcolm Barr, economist at JPMorgan. “I think there would be a significant contraction in GDP.”

How a ‘no deal’ will hit industry

food and drink
Problem Supply chains are extremely efficient, enabling almost a third of food in UK supermarkets to be imported from the EU and on to the shelves within two days. Any import delays would lead to food shortages.

Industry comment “There would be short-term disruption to food supply and it would be significant. Nobody is saying the country goes hungry, but there would be massive disruption”
Ian Wright, director-general, Food and Drink Federation

Road hauliers
Problem Existing ports have insufficient facilities and staff to cope with the imposition of new customs inspections, duties, VAT collection and assessment of conformity of goods with EU regulations

Industry comment “We expect that movements will rapidly grind to a halt as vehicles back up waiting to be processed by customs authorities”
Road Haulage Association spokesman

Ports and airports
Problem A lack of facilities, staff and physical infrastructure to deal with onerous new customs checks causes delays and rapidly leads to queues and backlogs.

Industry comment “Don’t let it happen. A cliff-edge scenario is entirely avoidable. It would be a colossal failure of leadership on all parties to the negotiation”
John Holland Kaye, Heathrow airport chief executive

Aviation
Problem Air traffic requires agreements from the EU to land in their territories and Britain will have fallen out of the European Open Skies regime. It will also cease to be a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency controlling authorisation of third country operations. Flights to the EU cease.

Industry comment “There is not a legal mechanism in which the airlines can operate in a hard Brexit no deal outcome”
Michael O’Leary, Ryanair chief executive

Chemicals
Problem Exports and imports under the EU’s so-called Reach regulations, which cover most chemicals, would cease by law. These range from heavy industrial chemicals to the products that are ingredients in toothpaste and shampoo.

Industry comment “It’s not the tariffs that would hurt . . . Technically, we would be excluded from the marketplace and that would be pretty catastrophic”
Steve Elliott, chief executive of Chemicals Industry Association

Orchestras
Problem Orchestra tours to the EU, which are used to raise money to keep UK operations going, rely on the EU posted worker directive to ensure taxes and social security is not deducted from musicians fees abroad. This would cease immediately.

Industry comment ”If in March 2019 we leave the single market, the next day an orchestra can no longer apply to HMRC for an A1 certificate, so they would get social security deducted from the fee to the orchestra on a tour in Europe. A tour goes from breaking even to making a loss”
Mark Pemberton, director of the Association of British Orchestras

Automotive
Problem Tariffs and port delays plus the difficulties of chemicals imports undermine the just in time business models of UK automotive manufacturing.

Industry comment “Our biggest fear is that . . . we fall off a cliff edge — no deal. This would undermine our competitiveness and our ability to attract the investment that is critical to future growth”
Mike Hawes, chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders

Medicines
Problem All medicines legally marketed in the EU must be licensed in a member state of the union. Well over a thousand medicines will need to have their licences moved from the UK before Brexit to ensure they can still be sold afterwards.

Industry comment “This is not like transferring a filing cabinet from one location to another . . . This will take time and investment”
Virginia Acha, Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry executive director

Farming
Problem Animal and food products can only be exported to the EU from a third country through registered border inspection posts. And northern France has only two: Le Havre and Dunkirk. These do not have the capacity to take the current flow of products from the UK which currently do not need checking.

Industry comment “We would see huge disruption in terms of cost and actually getting [products] there. It does work both ways . . . surpluses and shortages, good and bad for farmers”
Tom Keen, National Farmers Union

Nuclear
Problem The lack of international agreements between the UK and EU over regulation of the nuclear industry would prevent the export of nuclear fuel and medical radioactive isotopes used in cancer treatments. There currently fall under the remit of Euratom, the pan-European nuclear regulator.

Industry comment “The Royal College of Radiologists, like others in medicine and industry, is seriously concerned about continued access to these materials if we leave the Euratom treaty under Brexit”
Nicola Strickland, President of The Royal College of Radiologists

HashiAsLarry · 16/07/2017 21:27

In non brexit news, my eldest girl is missing her daddy and has seen fit to ask me for some attention. Even at 7 she's still kitten soft 😍
I'll blame her for bad formatting Wink

Westministenders: Transition
HashiAsLarry · 16/07/2017 21:40

More back tracking
@tnewtondunn
Liam Fox concedes there will be no free trade deals ready to be signed the moment UK leaves EU, as he's not allowed to negotiate #bbcsp

In reply @davidallengreen
Well.
Second part not true, fwiw - UK not allowed to conclude agreements as EU member. Negotiations possible.)
That said: no serious negotiations were ever likely while UK still member of EU, even on preliminary basis.
No serious deal possible with any third party country likely until/unless UK-EU relationship clear. Huge consideration. Still unknown.
In one (limited) way you can feel sorry for Fox (I know, I know), as he did not set up this pointless department.
May did, cluelessly..

Gumpendorf · 16/07/2017 22:04

Interesting main article in tomorrow's Telegraph. Express is also warning of more migrants with a soft Brexit. As talks begin, it seems it's game on.

Westministenders: Transition
pointythings · 16/07/2017 22:22

OlennasWimple autocorrect was designed to be wrong. Grin

Mine turns all my fucks into ducks. What's that all about? Brexit meant we are definitely more than ducked. Unless you mean in the ;ducking witches' sense, in which case it's pretty accurate.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 16/07/2017 23:25

hashi your cat is so cute.

Food getting more expensive... Just wait til people go on their holiday to Spain this year and only get a single euro for a pound... Only a couple of weeks before that reality starts to hit a few

I'm really hopeful the British public is going to wake up to the realities of Brexit this summer.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 16/07/2017 23:26

hashi your cat is so cute.

Food getting more expensive... Just wait til people go on their holiday to Spain this year and only get a single euro for a pound... Only a couple of weeks before that reality starts to hit a few

I'm really hopeful the British public is going to wake up to the realities of Brexit this summer.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2017 23:39

why "winging it" infuriates me:

It is all part of the dilettante arrogance of the UK ruling class, their sense of entitlement without working for it.
It's what can happen when a ruling class is dominated by those with generations of inherited privilege
Having to work hard to get something would mean you are one of the plebs, so that is to be avoided.

It can work fine so long as they only have to deal with their own lower orders, or with other countries they rule, or countries with equally arrogant and stupid leaders.

However, when the UK competes with many other countries, which it doesn't control and where the leaders are not too proud to prepare and work hard, then it explains the several decades of relative UK decline in the world.

Think about it:
if your DC want a good career, would you be happy if they just casually "wing it" at school,
or would you expect them to attend school every day they should, do their homework, revise thoroughly for all their exams ?

Which appproach means they have a better chance to do well in life and which means they get overtaken by their peers ?

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2017 23:41

pointy My autocorrect always changes "Tories" to "Gories" Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2017 00:06

Hashi North was listing all those problems months ago and a few articles in the Times & FT have picked up on this.
However, neither DD nor May will bother to read any view that disagrees with their Brexit plans

Barnier & Co have said for months that the UK legally can't sign trade deals before Brexit.
It's absolutely outrageous that Fox has only now acknowledged that
All those "dozens of trade deals" DD - and some MN posters - has claimed the U.K. will have are just delusional nonsense.

It will make years, with the U.K. trapped in limbo, outside the EU, but also outside everywhere else.

Of course few countries would wish to waste expensive negotiating resources before the Brexit terms for the UK are known
e.g. dominant interest for them would be whether a deal with the UK can give them any improved access to the single market

DD last year said he was shocked to learn how complicated Brexit would be.
That it was more complicated than planning a moon landing.
If he'd planned the moon landings instead of NASA, Armstrong & co would have landed. Or even crashed there.
They'd never have taken off. Might have exploded on the launch pad, though.

Of course, if Brexit turns into a disaster, neither the Tory party nor their media cheer leaders will accept any blame.
Nor will those fervent Leavers who are determined to ignore any inconvenient difficulties

It will naturally be "punishment" Hmm :
the nasty EU punishing the poor little UK for not bothering to do any homework or planning, before trying to turn back the clock 45 years

If your DC don't bother doing any homework or revising, do you think the examiners are "punishing" them when they get an F instead of an A or B ?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2017 00:20

Some on the left think at least there is one upside - the Tories will be out of power for a generation after Brexit:

Some in the Tory party fear this too, hence the chance some will rebel.

However, the hardcore Brexiters think they can get away with it - and they just might:
years of xenophobic bile from many Tory politicians and media has primed voters to blame "outsiders" / traitors / benefit "scroungers" ...
anyone else for the mess that the ruling class keep making of the economy and living standards.

Even if say the govt collapses and Corbyn becomes PM, with or without a GE, there will be a concerted effort to blame Labour for ruining Brexit, whether by carrying it out, or coming into power shortly afterwards.

After all, Labour was blamed for the late 1970s meltdown after the Tory 3-day week
Labour was blamed for the 2008 crash hitting so badly and for so long - even though the Tories have been in power since 2010

Cailleach1 · 17/07/2017 00:30

Didn't Fox also say they would just continue on separately with the agreements with the EU and other countries. They would entrench them in law and voila. Did I get the gist of that wrong? No mention of approaching the other countries, negotiating and them agreeing to it. The UK would just pronounce them grandfathered.

He was hard to follow because the language was used to disguise the poverty of the stance.

mathanxiety · 17/07/2017 05:45

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/135/13513.htm#_idTextAnchor172

European Union Committee (HofL)
'Brexit: trade in non-financial services'
18th Report of Session 2016-17 - published 22 March 2017 - HL Paper 135

Conclusions (hint - the outlook is dire)

Mistigri · 17/07/2017 06:57

Brexit is obviously shit and we are totally fucked, as anyone who takes the trouble to read documents like the one posted by math above knows (no leaver ever ventures there though). But it does bring the delightful prospect of watching DD get humiliated for a whole week every month.

I dont think hes a stupid man, and i think he knows that he is completely outclassed by Barnier and team. He must surely cringe every time they meet and his lack of preparation and lack of a negotiating position is further exposed.

Sorry for lack of punctution, ipad randomly decides not to allow me to use symbols and punctuation marks.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2017 09:17

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Cailleach1 · 17/07/2017 09:33

Barnier is the creme de la creme (as Miss Jean Brodie would say). He is perfect for his appointment as negotiator. He will have an excellent grasp on issues raised.

When regional affairs commissioner, he was in charge of the EU's peace programme for Northern Ireland.

When European Commissioner for Internal Market and Services, he was in charge of the reform of the European banking system.

He was french minister for agriculture and fisheries, Foreign affairs, European affairs and minister for the environment.

www.derryjournal.com/news/michel-barnier-far-more-sensitive-to-impact-of-brexit-on-good-friday-agreement-than-confused-british-durkan-1-7958447

Some Leavers walked out of a Commons Committee because the report was too negative. Don't call it. Eh?

"Another source close to the committee said the draft report was excoriating about the prospect of no deal based on the evidence given by David Davis, the Brexit secretary, who ended up admitting that he had not calculated the cost of not having a deal with the EU."

Cailleach1 · 17/07/2017 09:40

Oh Hashi, mere details. Who bothers with the technicalities on Brexit? It is about fantasising believing.

Gumpendorf · 17/07/2017 09:49

I dont think hes a stupid man, and i think he knows that he is completely outclassed by Barnier and team. He must surely cringe every time they meet and his lack of preparation and lack of a negotiating position is further exposed.

Do you think Davis has that much self awareness? I'm doubtful myself. Barnier is more of a technocrat rather than a politician and I suspect Davis sees him as nerdy and frustrating. Davis prefers the broad sweep of policy as some of my former colleagues would say.

missmoon · 17/07/2017 09:54

This picture of the Brexit talks is very interesting, the EU team on the left don't look amused: twitter.com/alexebarker/status/886868644935979008

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2017 10:05

I hope DD is just lying when he says no one has calculated the cost of no deal
Or else that he is lying when he says no deal is an option for the govt