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Brexit

Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

976 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 12:39

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

OP posts:
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prettybird · 11/07/2017 08:38

I made the same comment to dh last night Peregrina: that if May had genuinely wanted a cross-party approach, the time to do that was 11 months ago when she took over as PM. That was when she had the opportunity to say that we must not forget the 48% of those that voted, not even the electorate and we need to being everyone with us.

Instead she tried to made the spurious claim that 65 million people were behind her Angry

Today's speech from her will be interesting. Most of her recent speeches seem to send her further into the quicksand Grin from my perspective Dh wants her to hang on for longer as the longer she cocks things up, the better it is for Scottish independence. (I've said not necessarily: JRM would be a gift! Wink)

I also have my concerns about the "opposition" from Corbyn. I agree with others that have said that he never really was a Remainer and that in his heart of hearts, he a) still thinks of the EU as a vehicle for corporate interests and b) believes in the chaos theory that would allow him to build a socialist paradise from the post-Brexit ruins of the UK economy. He seems to be even more disingenuous than May in his access to benefits of Single Market without FoM "have cake and eat it" belief. And I don't trust him not to whip the Labour MPs to support the Great Repeal Bill under the guise of "the will of the people".

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 11/07/2017 08:38

Love the Londolnshire link Grin

^Paul Bradbury, 71, was surprisingly one of the few Leave voters we came across. However, even he stressed the need to allow people with jobs and students from abroad into the UK.
He said: “I’m not against the movement, just letting everybody in.”^

Sounds like he wants a Belgium style immigration system. You are here to work, if you aren't working or don't have the financial means to support yourself you need to leave.
All possible within the EU.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 09:21

Alert, alert: collective Westminster brains !

What do YOU think ? Hmm

The May / DD Brexit vision requires about 8 major bills to pass before March 2019
They have to pass both the HoC and HoL

BUT ....

a bill must be rejected by the Lords in 2 successive Parliamentary sessions
before the PM can invoke the Parliament Act to force it through in the HoC

AND
this Parliament is a 2-year session

Imo, the HoL can block Brexit, at least beyond the A50 cutoff

This could end in a game of chicken:

If the HoL decide Brexit is going to be sufficiently calamitous for the UK, then they can block any or all of the crucial Brexit bills
BUT
the govt can then say that they will let the 2 years run out and have a totally disorderly Brexit, massive chaos with no laws for in or out, responsibility of the HoL

Who will blink first ?

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 09:22

Asking Westministender brains about Westminster conundrum

Peregrina · 11/07/2017 09:47

Intriguing BigChoc. I just hope the Commons rebels and Lords don't lose their nerve as they did before the election.

Parliament being a two year session and thus inadvertently causing the Parliament Act to stall, will be one of the many things which Theresa May and her advisers haven't thought through, or even thought about in the first instance.

lonelyplanetmum · 11/07/2017 09:51

Hmmm thinking about it BigChoc..

It all depends on the 1949 Parliament Act which reduced the time peers could delay a bill from two years over three parliamentary sessions to one year over two parliamentary sessions.
But constitutional lawyers debate whether the 1949 Act is valid anyway.
It is arguable that for the government to use the Parliament Act any Bill needs to have been rejected by peers three times not twice.
Apparently it came up with the legislation banning hunting too, which the Commons forced through despite the Lords objections...

citroenpresse · 11/07/2017 10:54

An alternative 'Brexit will never happen' scenario is that the EU simply refuse to accept a lesser deal for their citizens in the UK (as opposed to Maybot not giving a stuff about British citizens in the EU). She needs to EU's help to actually do a deal (total incompetence at the UK end), and now she may need their help NOT to do a deal.

www.businessinsider.nl/guy-verhofstadt-eu-parliament-block-brexit-deal-citizenship-rights-theresa-may-2017-7/?international=true&r=UK

ElenaGreco123 · 11/07/2017 11:07

BigChoc I'd be a bit more confident if some of the quiet scared remainer MPs in the Labour Party found their backbone and did not support any Brexit legislation unquestioningly. (I am looking at you MG.) I would not put my faith in HoL alone.

Polly Toynbee suddenly feels nostalgic:
Consider what Tony Blair did in his first year: the Good Friday agreement signed; the national minimum wage and human rights acts passed; the Bank of England made independent; a £5bn windfall from privatised utilities; and devolution to the Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly begun, along with a London mayor. He stripped the House of Lords of most hereditary peers, brought in a Freedom of Information Act, lowered the gay age of consent, ordained the right to roam, and saved the Kosovans. There was much more in the pipeline, with benefits for families increasing hugely. Any one of those achievements would be totemic in hapless May’s wasted year.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/11/theresa-may-first-year-brexit-europhobes-corbyn

LurkingHusband · 11/07/2017 11:19

The path to the current situation - and the paths from here - make a lot of sense if you place the overarching fact over it all that Brexit won't happen.

I know we've been very dismissive of Camerons cut'n'run policy. But if you add in the certain knowledge that Cameron was a committed Remainer (and having heard him defend the EU in a Cameron Direct in 2009, I believe he was sincere) it actually starts to make sense.

Let's start from a POV that the outcome of the referendum was a given "Remain". Obviously this didn't happen - maybe Remainers didn't factor in how much people would cut off their noses just to spite the elite. Maybe they underestimated the power of a bus. Maybe Saturn was in conjunction with Jupiter and Mars. For whatever reason, Leave won.

At this point, Remain "plan B" kicks in (as I refuse to believe such a momentous decision would not have had contingency built in).

The most immediate need is to ensure there is no way Brexit can be delivered. So, T+12 hours, Cameron scarpers. He does this quite deliberately without triggering A50 (which in hindsight we know would have been impossible. I suspect he knew already).

This leaves the country without a PM, and at least 3-4 weeks for the Tory party to put up a leader (if not a leaver Grin).

BoJo and Gove are toxic (I have my doubts about how many Tory MPs would serve under either) so we end up with - as highlighted at the time - the least-worst choice: May.

Now the fun begins. The "silent" remain camp (i.e behind the scenes) have already done the work that Davies et al haven't, and they know that ultimately there are two options. Total Brexit (now called hard) or No Brexit.

IF THERE WAS A SOFT BREXIT OPTION IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OFFERED TO CAMERON, AND HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT

(I suggest we remember that suggestion as the months unwind)

OK, so we're set. Stopgap leader (because with hindsight - again - that's all May ever was going to be). Leavers thinking they are driving the agenda, let's "get to work" ( ©T. May 20917).

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war ?

I suspect the silence of the Remainers immediately post-referendum was not "shock", it was another strand of plan B. Let the opposition wear themselves out, false sense of security. Wait for the autumn TV schedules to liven up, and the UKIP contingent will return back to their homes, not to bother the electoral process too much again (seems that was right ?!).

Give 'em enough rope ?

Obviously Theresa May was buoyed up with inheriting Camerons majority. But as the sheer scale of the task started to dawn (because, as we know, Leave had no credible plan. Unlike Remain who I believe have done all the work Leave now find themselves doing) it became too tempting to pull the "Election" lever. Especially as some Leave/Tory MPs started to believe they could ram through the Tories-on-steroids manifesto they tried last month.

The collapse of UKIP (foretold here) pretty much meant the reduced Tory majority, and insult of a minority government.

Any remainer who has done their homework will know that it is impossible to achieve a soft Brexit. It has to be all or nothing.

I'd like to think we are now in the phase where the idiot hero has his face inches from a spinning blade and finally realises that they need to throw off their attacker (Leavers) and regain their balance (go back to where we started).

I also thing the wider implications are starting to dawn, and even committed Leavers don't like the future. Not the shrinking of the economy, lack of opportunities for the younger generations, loss of rights of UK citizens abroad, massive environmental disruption - that's chump change when your own interests are at stake.

I seriously believe that as the days and weeks are passing, Leavers are starting to see the world stage, where the UK foreign secretary - representing 60 million poor people is relegated to the third row, alongside Lichtenstein, while the US snuggles up to China, Russia, and the EU. Where news reports never find time for the "UK view" as it's of less interest (and importance) to a world that wants to know what 4 billion Chinese, 450 EU citizens, 300 million Americans, 144 million Russians, 127 million Japanese think.

We've shaken the snowglobe, but as the snow is settling ....

If I am right - or in the ballpark - I think there are some bear traps ahead. The remain hive mind will know what they are, and will exploit them, maybe at some cost to themselves. After all, you need to pull the thorn from the wound before it will heal. And it hurts.

Also, if I am right, this is a journey whose destination was planned before 23rd June 2016. It doesn't need anyone on the tracks now, the train is going to crash of it's own accord. It has to crash of it's own accord.

Final thought.

UK remainers can count on the "goodwill" of the EU27 for the UK to remain in the EU. What that means in real terms, no one can say. However, Leavers can count on very little from anyone. Money - yes. Press coverage (for what it's worth) yes. But generally they really are swimming against a tide. You will hear the "will of the people" argument trotted out endlessly. But if we stop, and give our heads a wobble, we need to ask: "When has UK politics ever delivered for a majority ????". And when you realise the answer is pretty much "never", you have to ask the supplementary question: "So why is Brexit so different ?".

Hmm
LurkingHusband · 11/07/2017 11:23

More (bad) news

www.timeshighereducation.com/news/merkels-party-pledges-push-germany-rd-spending-lead

Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union has pledged to spend 3.5 per cent of the country’s gross domestic product on research and development by 2025, a promise that would make Germany the biggest R&D investor in the European Union, open up a big gap with the United States, and even overtake Japan.

The CDU, widely expected to emerge as the biggest party in September’s federal election, argues in its new manifesto that “research and innovation are the basis of growth and prosperity”.

Governments have turned their attention to national levels of R&D spending, channelled through universities, research institutes and companies, in the hope that increasing it can yield an economic pay-off.

The UK government has in recent months acknowledged that the country spends too little on R&D – just 1.7 per cent of GDP – and promised an additional £2 billion a year by 2020-21 for industrial research challenges in order to turn around Britain’s lack of economic productivity.

But even these additional resources will still only increase the UK’s R&D investment level to 2 per cent at best. Germany currently invests 3 per cent, the CDU manifesto says.

(contd).

If only the UK had £350 million a week to spare ...

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 11:46

lh I might add that the (narrow) Leave vote only happened because of 3 extraordinary events / factors that Cameron and the Tory Paliamentary party didn't predict:

  1. The psyops waged by Cambridge Analytica for alt-right / looter billionaires that took campaigning to a new tech level.
    Also crossing boundaries where no modern UK political campaign had dared go in stirring up visceral fear and resentment of immigrants.

  2. The election of a Labour Leader who wouldn't campaign full-blast with their whole party alongside the Tories, as happened in IndyRef

  3. Bojo's sudden switch to Leave (entirely motivated by his ambition to be PM after Cameron - who had already said he would stand down before the next GE)

If none of these 3 extraordinary events had happened, the original backroom estimate of Remain winning by at least 55% to 45% looked realistic.

Remember, before the Leave campaign started up, polling regularly had the EU well down the list of issues concerning voters.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 11:53

The HoL is part of the checks & balances in our Parliamentary system, in our constitution.

Their power to block should never be used capriciously, but if they decide that the actions of a govt would seriously harm the country / its people, then that is the time to use the power they have been given.

Especially bills that give a govt Henry VIII powers

ElenaGreco123 · 11/07/2017 12:02

LH I would love to believe that there is a secret remain hivemind or even a plan B.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 12:13

I don't believe in a hive mind, but the Tory party facing electoral oblivion for a generation would concentrate minds wonderfully

To say nothing of the financial losses for most Tory donors and backers with any substantial UK business interests:
UK shares & investments would be down in the short to medium term at least.
Sterling assets were already devalued overnight last year.
Land, houses and City skyscrapers can't be stuck in an aircraft and shipped abroad.

LurkingHusband · 11/07/2017 12:19

If we take the view there is a hidden hand guiding us away from Leave, then where we are now makes more sense.

Let the Leavers exhaust themselves chasing unicorns. The Remainers know it's just an impossible circle to square.

Remembers the (rather appropriate, in someways) name "Jan Tregeagle".

Dozmary pool - BoJos summer residence ?

Mrsmartell08 · 11/07/2017 12:25

Bojo at the box in HofP saying EU can "go whistle" for its "extortionate" monetary demands.....

Mrsmartell08 · 11/07/2017 12:26

I really hope you are right LH

Peregrina · 11/07/2017 13:15

Bojo at the box in HofP saying EU can "go whistle" for its "extortionate" monetary demands.....

OK, so we crash out - and then what? A quick deal with the US which wrecks the NHS. Food shortages, long queues at Customs etc. etc. Do the Tories really want to be the people to be seen to break the Country? NHS they probably don't mind, but losing their business chums?

Mrsmartell08 · 11/07/2017 13:16

So wtf is he up to?

LurkingHusband · 11/07/2017 13:20

OK, so we crash out - and then what? A quick deal with the US which wrecks the NHS.

If we crash out, no US firm - trade deal or no trade deal - would touch us with a 4,000 mile pole.

A country that can't honour one agreement, won't get a chance to renege on a second.

prettybird · 11/07/2017 13:21

Doesn't BoJo also have an American passport - or at least the right to one? Hmm

DividedKingdom · 11/07/2017 13:31

Doesn't BoJo also have an American passport - or at least the right to one?

My favourite subject rears it's ugly head again.

Yes he has a US passport
Yes he got done for evading tax as per US law
Yes he made a big bluffy pile of shite up about renouncing US citizenship
No he did not make any attempt to renounce his highly valuable these days dual citizenship.

Because Yes he believes we're all a bunch of plebs too stupid to see through his BS...or "hoc stercus tauri est" as I'm sure he'd call it Hmm

LurkingHusband · 11/07/2017 13:36

In some respects, BoJo possesses all it needs to be US president ...

(those of us who know our US constitution know why Arnie was never a contender in the 90s ...)

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 11/07/2017 13:50

There are also whispers of The Rock and Mark Zuckerberg yeing up 2020.

Mrsmartell08 · 11/07/2017 13:50

Ugh
He really thinks he's anither Churchill, doesn't he!?
Mimsy bastard quisling fuck
😡😡😡😡😡

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