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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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WrongTrouser · 30/06/2017 09:05

I see you say it's about male power, not about using TM's sexuality to depict her being sexually humiliated Hmm Yeah, fine. The thing is, as long as all this feminist stuff matters, but only until it's Tory women in question, its not convincing. Political ideas (equality, feminism etc) need to be consistent and logically coherent and stand the test of still holding up when applied to people one opposes.

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:05

Blair got shown as a poodle with Bush, which lacks the overt sexualisation I agree, but is still pretty harsh. Which one is it that get shown in a rather grim gimp costume? That's pretty sexualised and they are male.

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:06

You are assuming I would be getting offended if the same cartoon depicted someone from the left who cozied up to Trump wrong. I wouldn't.

whatwouldrondo · 30/06/2017 09:07

I would add that people moaning about political correctness and saying that women marching are "snowflakes" or "virtue signalling" as the regulars in the Barmy Arms used to on a regular basis, is not the way to address it either. I notice that has been quiet for months, is it suddenly not such a comfortable way to bond?

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:09

TM's sexuality to depict her being sexually humiliated

I think you are putting that spin on it. Taking into account her hand holding incident and swift invitation round for tea with the queen, I don't see this as showing her humiliated or forced. I see it as her choosing to go to bed with and, possibly be buggered by, Donald Trump.

WrongTrouser · 30/06/2017 09:10

I'll leave you to it. Clearly a conversation about why public and online discourse is getting increasingly unpleasant and aggressive, which so quickly descends to snide remarks about the "Barmy Arms" regulars is going nowhere fast.

whatwouldrondo · 30/06/2017 09:13

Sorry Howabout my comments was addressed to Wrong Trouser and yes there were cartoons showing Blair and Cameron in sexually submissive contexts. There is also an issue of whether May should be spared the vicious satire just because she is a woman? I feel sure this was all discussed at length in the Guardians offices Hmm

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:14

I'm sorry what but I really object to being shut down and placed in the Barmy Army camp of right-wingers because I don't think a distasteful cartoon is at all equivalent to people sending death threats on Twitter. I would like to think that during my time on this thread I have shown myself to be a firmly liberal, guardian reading, lentil weaving lefty. I have intolerances. I have been on women's a d anti-trump marches.

I just think outrage should be proportional and directed at the genuinely hateful or it loses its power.

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:17

OK. I'm sorry. I have got excessively ranty now and will take some deep breaths. This is a difficult conversation, but an important one I think.

whatwouldrondo · 30/06/2017 09:18

Wrong Firstly I do not think that political satire has got more vicious, it always was, and I remember it from Wilson on. We were however talking about the license for people in general to feel empowered to express misogyny and prejudice. You do not think think the discourse in the Barmy Arms was part and parcel of the same thing?

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:21

And I'm sorry what I realise you weren't addressing that to me at all. I got carried away with my own outrage. Ah the bitter irony. Grin

whatwouldrondo · 30/06/2017 09:24

Bigly Where did I shut you down? I was highlighting that along with the right feeling empowered to, at the extreme send death threats on Twitter, there has been at the other end of the issue the creation of a discourse designed to shut down those who try to assert liberal values.

Tanith · 30/06/2017 09:24

"Did the DM have hate tirades against the EU and or EU citizens in the 80s and 90s?
Wasn't the flow the other way for a while or is Auf Weidersehen, Pet not an actual documentary?"

Not a documentary, but a sitcom based on British builders having to emigrate to find work. Yes, it did happen: my uncle was a plasterer and I remember being surprised when he started getting more work in the UK.
It makes me wonder what the reaction abroad will be when British workers again emigrate to find work after the behaviour towards EU citizens from our press and Government.

whatwouldrondo · 30/06/2017 09:26

Cross posted, peace and love....

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:26

Sorry what, just unfortunate post ordering and me getting over excited leading to misunderstanding.

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:27

Gah! more cross posts. Grin

HashiAsLarry · 30/06/2017 09:27

I don't see political satire, even bad taste stuff, aimed at a person as a consequence of their actions in any way equivalent to the right wing press stirring hatred towards entire f
groups of people who may have been born in the wrong place or the wrong skin tone.

whatwouldrondo · 30/06/2017 09:29

Tanith I have members of my family working as tradesmen in the EU. Actually I have not heard of them experiencing any issues. They are accepted as members of their communities for who they are and what they do. The only issue is anxiety about their future status and they have a lot of sympathy for that.

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 09:32

Just whaaat! I have now lost count of the u-turning on public sector pay cap Confused

Theresa May agrees to lift public sector pay cap after Tory MPs appeal to Downing Street
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/30/theresa-may-agrees-lift-public-sector-pay-cap-tory-mps-appeal/amp/

whatwouldrondo · 30/06/2017 09:36

And their communities have a fair number of Brits in them but nobody is moaning about feeling overwhelmed, their culture threatened, school places taken or the difficulty of getting GP appointments... In fact I see frequent bilingual threads on social media that manifest a community living together and supporting each other.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 30/06/2017 09:41

Theresa May agrees to lift public sector pay cap after Tory MPs appeal to Downing Street

Not unhappy about that - but ffs. Worms have more backbone than her.
Come in Theresa, u turn on Brexit please, it's the only thing you haven't changed your mind on.

oh never mind, I just remembered she was a Remsiner back in the day

Cailleach1 · 30/06/2017 09:42

Lazy, but have to post these comments from the Independent.

"Amazes me how easy it has been to hoodwink the British public. Through its membership of the EU, the UK already has very good trade agreements with over fifty countries, a lot of which are tariff free, also has plenty of preferential trade agreements with countries like the USA and China which include a lot of products at very low tariffs. An awful lot of foodstuffs already arrive in the UK from various countries around the world tariff free, won't get better than that. With the USA average tariff is 3%, trivial. People keep harping on about free trade, doesn't exist, its a myth, you couldn't have unhindered tariff free trade agreements with China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc it would wreck you farming and manufacturing sector's. You have to have tariffs, you have to have quotas, controls on dumping and restrictions on certain goods. Its a very big cake now, and everyone wants a nibble, the days of ripping off some bloke with a spear have long gone. What impresses me the most though is put a doctor in charge of overseas trade negotiations, not an experienced trade negotiator, a GP."

Oh Gosh, that 'Newsnight' with James O'Brien interviewing Andrea Leadsom where she is putting Pascal Lemy (ex DG of WTO and former EU Commissioner for trade) right about how trade and tariffs work.

Speaking of utter bull. Owen Patterson was spouting similar with Andrew Neil. Nobody stopping him or challenging him. He is going to remove all tariffs on products coming in. So imports will have no tariffs so dirt cheap, but other countries will maybe put 35% tariffs on UK exports. So flooding with cheap imports and exports too dear for other countries. Ok, farming areas will be beautiful and people will visit them. Theme parks then. Just as well as uk farming will be devastated. They all talk about New Zealand and Switzerland. Usually nobody knows enough to put them in their place challenge them. Like Lamy did with Leadsom. Patterson even said EU is stopping farming from modernising. Really?

Cailleach1 · 30/06/2017 09:45

The Paterson segment was on Daily Politics yesterday, I think.

Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 09:45

Bigly Flowers my thoughts are with you today xxx

Cailleach1 · 30/06/2017 09:46

Lamy, Lamy, Lamy. Not Lemy.

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