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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Brexit Apprentice

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/06/2017 16:26

Theresa May is increasing looking like she is running an episode of the Apprentice with two teams trying to compete in their plan for Brexit. Complete with the obligatory reprehensible contestants.

On one side we have Team Creationists intent on hard Brexit and on the other we have Team Sensibles desperate to get a softer deal.
May herself has been held hostage by seasoned expert negotiators the DUP. Once No 10 has reported the deal was done, only for the DUP to say it wasn’t. Then it said, it would be settled today. But the DUP disagreed and said ‘the weekend’. Now its 'next week'.

Meanwhile the Queen has been messed about with a scapegoat over when her Queen’s Speech will be. It’s likely to be a week on Monday.
Meanwhile the Brexit department is also in chaos.

The Number two in the department was sacked and replaced by a Remainer, and the number three quit amongst reports that he no longer thought Brexit was achievable and that there was no way that the Great Repeal Act could pass through the Lords. He has been replaced by the Head of the infamous Arch-Brexit Whatsapp group.

Oh and Gove got hired. Nuff said on that one.

After some slight back tracking from David Davis, Hard Brexit is still on in all its glory. Negotiations are going ahead next week. Well that’s what we are saying. The EU, on the other hand, don’t won’t to go ahead until we have an officially sworn in government. Which seems pretty fair enough.

Tune in to find out which Team wins this week’ The Brexit Apprentice

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18
citroenpresse · 15/06/2017 21:09

Halve stamp duty but make homeowners pay an additional annual home owner tax. And extra rules for investment properties. And if prices dropped in London, who would be losing out?

everthibkyouvebeenconned · 15/06/2017 21:17

That's bold citreon I don't necessarily disagree but baulked I confess at how much I could end up.paying

I think my reaction is actually the issue
We are so sold on house ownership. It's in our pysche. And the have nots are forgotten about. Thatcher schooled us well

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2017 21:20

woman People of Colour disproportionately end up in substandard, sometimes dangerous accommodation, both social housing and private.

We need something like a "Black Lives Matter" in the Uk as well.
Of course, that's politically impossible, because there are so many more white votes that politicians pay attention to.

This is why there may be riots - when no one listens and they have no other means to express their frustration and anger
This is even how some can be seduced by terrorism, or at least to not reporting suspicions.

RedToothBrush · 15/06/2017 21:23

Property taxation could well be an answer.

How does that help people who are trying to buy a house? How does that help people in homes that are too small and can not afford to a bigger home? You also have people who own homes, but have very little income and would not be able to afford increases and will be forced out of certain areas.

The problem is made worse by the sheer number of pensioners who have incomes higher than working age people. People who are in effect being supported by these working age people who will never earn as much as these pensioners and even those who might will not get as much as this generation's pensioners when they reach retirement age.

The idea that taxing property will solve issues is far, far too simplistic. There are many people under the age of 40 who are lucky enough to own property but are still struggling with the cost of that. Putting an extra tax on property for these people could well mean an increase in people stuck in rental accommodation or homes that are too small.

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everthibkyouvebeenconned · 15/06/2017 21:23

Big we do have black lives matter here and from what some of the things I am sent there really does seem to be a rising of BAME voices on Social media over the last year or so (mainly by my mum don't ask!)...and it's getting angier

Grenfell will galvanise it further I think

OlennasWimple · 15/06/2017 21:23

Owners would simply pass the cost of the tax onto renters, though it helps the issue of empty houses

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2017 21:25

The UK regards it as an unwritten rule that house prices should keep rising

Would it be so terrible if they just stayed the same, while wages and other prices rose a little every year ?
We need to get back to regarding a house as a home, rather than an investment

everthibkyouvebeenconned · 15/06/2017 21:26

There could be levels for property taxation by value or time owned? But we would need a change in the actual value of owning a house . Not financial but human value based

everthibkyouvebeenconned · 15/06/2017 21:27

As Big said. Not an asset. A home

woman12345 · 15/06/2017 21:30

1981 BigChoc similar political flavours around then to now, with NF locally active in New Cross:

On 2 March the Action Committee organised a "Black People's Day of Action", when 20,000 people marched over a period of eight hours from Fordham Park to Hyde Park carrying placards including: "Thirteen Dead and Nothing Said", "Dame Jill Knight Set The Fire Alight!" — an apparent reference to a controversial speech by Dame Jill Knight, a right-wing member of the ruling Conservative party, which was widely interpreted as condoning or even encouraging "direct action" against noisy parties

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2017 21:32

We need to stop house prices rising
The obvious way is to reduce the profit people make, especially when they keep trading up

I'd treat profit on any house - or building land - as Capital Gains and whack it up to say 80% tax, not just on 2nd properties, so people can't dodge it.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2017 21:33

Of course, if people have to sell homes for care costs, then these costs should come out before any remaining profit is taxed

BestIsWest · 15/06/2017 21:36

We really need to look at second home ownership too, when many of us can't afford to buy one. My DCs have no hope.

RedToothBrush · 15/06/2017 21:40

www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/introducing-the-new-improved-maybot-3000/
Introducing the new, improved Maybot 3000

In the first meeting of the political cabinet since she blew her party’s majority, Philip Hammond asked why there had been no economic message in the campaign. Andrea Leadsom said that while May had repeatedly claimed the election was all about Brexit, she had never said what Brexit was actually for. The most pointed contribution, though, came from Sajid Javid, who lambasted the high-handed way that May’s team had run No. 10.

and

They lamented how Tory posters were defaced, the venom on social media, and how pro-Corbyn students seem to be. It took the Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, who has had to deal with the cyber-Nats and far worse, to point out that her English colleagues had better get used to this. She told them she had just spent months having been accused of being a ‘rape apologist’ because of the Tory policy of exempting rape victims from its two-child tax credits cap.

and

Their current priority is to avoid a second election for as long as possible. A leadership campaign might quickly descend into chaos and give Mr Corbyn the entrée he needs. The upshot is that May will be given time to bed down this minority government and prove it can function before she is replaced.

and

It turns out that she only had one speech, drafted in the expectation of a landslide, and she decided to tweak it rather than write a new one. The few lines about the Northern Irish Democratic Unionists were the only concession to the new reality she found herself in.

and

The far more challenging thing will be to alter the way she operates on a day-to-day basis. Some are sceptical of her ability to do this.

I understand that one reason George Bridges, one of the most able ministers in the last parliament, has quit the Brexit department is that he doesn’t think Theresa May really will start consulting others, even now. May sacked his colleague, the Brexit minister David Jones, without first discussing it with his boss, David Davis — an indication that old habits die hard.

No one seriously thinks she will ever recover her stature. ‘It is like with Gordon, once you have seen the flaws, you can’t un-see them,’ says one minister. Some of her cabinet colleagues have been astonished at her handling of negotiations with the DUP. Her decision to declare publicly that she wanted a deal with them and to send her chief whip to Belfast to negotiate it suggested a failure to grasp the basics of negotiating technique. Why was she willing to accept their demand for a written deal, rather than govern as a minority and call their bluff, given they’d never put Corbyn in No. 10?

If she struggles in negotiations with patriotic Ulstermen, how will she handle Brexit? ‘She’s a busted flush,’ warns one minister. ‘She can’t carry out these negotiations; just look at the cartoons of her in the foreign press.’

and

None of these candidates is ideal. Boris Johnson is far from universally popular — and if the election was in part a backlash against Brexit, in a country still split on this question, should the Tory party be led by the Leave campaign’s most recognisable face? In the party, there are those determined to stop him. Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, loathes him and considers him toxic north of the border. She would throw her ever-growing political power behind who-ever was the ‘Stop Boris’ candidate (she had her own meeting with Amber Rudd when she came to London last Monday). There are also Tories who fret that the EU couldn’t be seen to give a good deal to Boris, given his role in the referendum. Another concern is that Boris means drama, and the country has had quite enough of that from the Tories in the past 12 months.

and

So much is at stake. The Tory party schism over the EU was closing, but it has now been reopened by the indecisive election result. The differences over policy and personnel within the parliamentary party, on Brexit and austerity, are such that many Tories think the party is entering one of its most dangerous periods in living memory. ‘It could be explosive enough to blow the party apart,’ warns one former cabinet minister. This is why the Tories are behaving so well: they’re afraid of Corbyn, yes, but they’re just as afraid of each other.

There are other notable paragraphs in this article. Well worth a read.

I note particularly how the article doesn't think the government regards the priority to be Brexit...

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HashiAsLarry · 15/06/2017 21:41

The idea that taxing property will solve issues is far, far too simplistic. There are many people under the age of 40 who are lucky enough to own property but are still struggling with the cost of that. Putting an extra tax on property for these people could well mean an increase in people stuck in rental accommodation or homes that are too small.
This is where we are. We could not afford to rent round here. The house next door rents for twice our mortgage, and they've had issues with safety there too.

Someone told me once of an idea to tax gained wealth on housing, at the point of sale. Lots of house prices rise due to local works, etc., so the idea is that it's not your earned wealth. Made a lot more sense when someone knowledgable explained it.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2017 21:46

Returning to Brexit:

I've observed this in Germany.
Now a French perspective on how the UK is now a laughing stock, but has at least strengthened the EU:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/britain-brexit-europe-populism-eu

"all of Europe is quietly sniggering at the sorry spectacle of the worn-out old British lion"

"Britain will never recover the position it once had.
Ridicule, after all, always has a price.
Might it not be better to consider paying it, rather than commit such an extraordinary act of national self-harm?"

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2017 21:50

Also key in red's link:

"She knows, as her cabinet knows, that she has just committed the greatest unforced error in modern political history.

In normal circumstances, she would be gone.

But the Conservative party is in shock, petrified of another election and fearful that Jeremy Corbyn could become prime minister.

woman12345 · 15/06/2017 21:51

gosh.red I'm paywalled by The Spectator. Thanks for posting. She had only one speech? She couldn't write a loser one?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40291372
London fire: 'The working class aren't being listened to
Even the BBC has changed too.

HashiAsLarry · 15/06/2017 22:01

Question Time doesn't have a kipper on. Klaxon.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2017 22:04

Dangerous cuts again:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/cuts-could-leave-trident-nuclear-base-at-risk-of-attack-says-police-boss

"Proposed budget cuts to a police force responsible for protecting the Tridentnuclear base and other defence sites are “frightening” at a time of heightened security concerns"
"the proposed budget savings will mean a reduction in real terms of around one in 10 firearms officers and a reduction or removal of police protection from MoD sites."

< will we be asking "Why " again after a terrorist attack on one of these sites ?>

RedToothBrush · 15/06/2017 22:06

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/experts-warned-government-against-cladding-material-used-on-grenfell?CMP=twt_gu
Experts warned government against cladding material used on Grenfell

Safety experts compiled report last year that warned an increasing number of buildings are being wrapped in ‘potentially combustible materials’

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BigChocFrenzy · 15/06/2017 22:08

Months of agonised waiting for survivors and families:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/grenfell-tower-police-fear-they-will-not-be-able-to-identify-all-the-dead

"Police have said that some of the dead from the devastating blaze that destroyed a tower block in London may never be identified as officers warned that the painful process of retrieving the victims could take months.

Among the missingg^ are entire families, a six-month-old baby, a young Italian couple, and a five-year-old boy who lost hold of an adult’s hand as his family struggled through thick smoke to escape the blaze."

mathanxiety · 15/06/2017 22:10

Mass amounts of cheap, imported, ready trained labour who have been trained to lower standards than in Britain & throw in communications issues wrt language barriers.

Seriously Charmageddon?
Do you have any idea who built Britain? The canals, the railways, the Underground, the motorways, the massive engineering projects that gave the cities sewers?

The answer is untrained, cheap, foreign labour, from Ireland.

I'm afraid I have no stats, facts or studies to link to, just anecdata unfortunately
No kidding.
Or maybe you are one of those people who have not yet heard that Ireland is a separate country.

The Irish also built American cities and infrastructure, including cities that are marvels of engineering like Chicago, where a river's course was reversed and tunneling miles under Lake Michigan to secure a clean water supply was required.

Look around and watch it all collapse.

Look out also for problems on a massive scale in the US stemming from the employment of Poles and Mexicans in industries like roofing, home renovation, infrastructure projects, etc. in recent years.
Don't hold your breath.

(And YYY to home renovation including much more than slapping some concrete blocks together).

I'm not talking about individual tradesmen or you & your pals hiring a small team to refit your bathroom.
I'm talking about the big contracts - where they are subcontracted & subcontracted & subcontracted and overall control is diluted to the point that standards inevitably slip & corners are cut.
FYI:
www.murphygroup.co.uk/
Does this look like bathroom renovation to you?
Where do you imagine this company got its name?
And who do you imagine they employ?
This is the company where a cousin of mine, an engineer, got his first job after graduating with B.Eng from University College Dublin.

Maybe you are one of those people not yet aware that foreigners can be engineers or foremen? I suspect from your comment on language difficulties that you believe the white collar elements of a big infrastructure project must be British or limited to English as their mode of communication.

Here's an example of a high rise fire that caused no fatalities, and the piece suggests why.
Note that this is a building constructed by foreign cheap labour, from the Phillipines and South Asia and Africa.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40273714
In Dubai, recent high-rise building fires, including at the 79-storey Torch Skyscraper in 2015, spread because of cladding, according to fire engineering consultancy Tenable Dubai.

But these fires caused no fatalities because the design and construction of the buildings allowed firefighters to battle the blaze and residents to evacuate via smoke-free, fire-free safety zones, it says.

"All the fires here lasted for six or seven hours but occupants managed to evacuate successfully and all fires were extinguished with no loss of life," says Sam Alcock, [Tenable's] director.

"In my opinion, design and construction is what saved lives."

Residents in Grenfell Tower had previously been advised to stay inside their flats in the event of a fire, and Ikhwan Razali, a fire engineer with Tenable understands why.

"You can advise people to stay in place if you have good fire suppression between levels, but in this case [in London] the advice appears to be wrong."

The cause of the fatalities in the Grenfell fire is very clear.

It is also very clear that cheap, whatever, foreign labour has absolutely nothing to do with the tragic outcome.

If you are not anti foreigner then do not impugn the technical skills or the training or the language skills of the labourers. This was not a case of every factor including cheap foreign labour lining up to make a perfect storm, a disaster waiting to happen. This was a case of regulators and administrative bodies utterly failing to do their jobs, aligned with greed on the part of the construction company, inspired by the idea that 'greed is good'.

Peregrina · 15/06/2017 22:17

This was a case of regulators and administrative bodies utterly failing to do their jobs, aligned with greed on the part of the construction company, inspired by the idea that 'greed is good'.

Plus the Tories obsession with getting rid of 'red tape'.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 15/06/2017 22:18

See also: www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2245/independent_report_into_school_closures_published

I have no idea as to the nationality of the labourers, no do I care.