What exactly is a "Soft Brexit"?

[optionalrationale]

Isn't the notion of a "Soft Brexit" just a forlorn hope that "Brexit Somehow Means Remain"?

Why is Brexit itself not enough for you?

Probably because it hasn't happened yet, and given that it was so ill defined, it's unlikely to deliver the flavour of Brexit required for OR.

Because if had had a brain and been more open to reforming the EU, we might have been able to avoid this situation.

oh yes, how dare anyone criticise lovely Mr Juncker Luxleaks anyone?

Do you think you'll be happy with the eventual outcome of Brexit op?

I think we will end up with a 'soft' Brexit actually. But Brexit means Brexit, so any outcome that means we're outside of the EU should make you happy. From reading this thread, I don't think that's the case though.

What precisely do you mean by "Soft Brexit"?

What?

Today 20:35 MariafromMalmo
It is bizarre that you would think otherwise.
Otherwise to what?

Just popping in to fact check as I too am perplexed at the revival of a sleeping thread* to continue this obsession....*

1. Juncker is elected in the normal way (only until 2019).

1. Past EU elections have chosen many British presidents of the European Commission,Parliament and Council.Other individuals elected have included ...

Roy Jenkins James Callaghan Margaret Thatcher ( elected twice) John Major Tony Blair (elected twice)

Many Irish ones too of course.

Lesser known (parliamentary) presidents have included Henry Plumb (Tory MEP) and presidents of the ECJ have included Alexander Mackenzie Stuart ( Scottish judge).

1. The council presidency rotates on a six-monthly basis, offering each of the member states an equal role.The UK would have been in charge again for the second half of 2017. Treeza chose not to.

1. British ECJ judges have included A. Mackenzie Stuart, J.P. * *Warner, G. Slynn ,F.G.Jacobs, K.H. Schiemann, David Edwards, Eleanor Sharpston, and Christopher Vajda.

Well that depends on what you mean by is elected in the normal way. My definition of being "elected in the normal way" is that ordinary citizen voters, not other politicians, get to cast their votes in a free election where they have a genuine choice between other alternatives, and that they have the power to get rid of the elected person at the following election

Here's some contrasting thoughts on Junkers published in the Guardian, June 2014
Outside of Luxembourg, it is difficult to find anyone in the EU elite who believes Juncker is the right person at the right time for Europe. "He's the wrong answer to the wrong question," said a senior EU diplomat.

To understand Juncker's improbable rise, it is necessary to go back to the 2009 Lisbon Treaty. The former Luxembourg prime minister landed the job by an overwhelming majority because national leaders sleepwalked into a trap laid by federalist schemers in the European parliament and could not summon the will to do anything about it, just as they appear to have overlooked reading the fine print of the legal text that governs Europe.

A catalogue of complacency, negligence, miscalculation and manoeuvring by national leaders over the past nine months conspired to deliver an outcome no one really wanted – Jean-Claude Juncker, Europe's accidental president.

Arguments about Juncker's suitability only took place after the horse had bolted, too late to reverse the momentum supplied by last month's European elections.

"The leaders individually and collectively didn't quite understand what this was about," said the diplomat. "But in the parliament they were devoted to this and they have more time to deal with it."

Another senior official in Brussels said: "We are at the point of no return. It's done a lot of damage. Now it's about damage limitation."

This sorry tale of mismanagement and ineptitude by Europe's national governments over the past year has saddled the EU with a powerful executive chief for the next five years whom many of them think is not fit for purpose. "The question is, will he be able to manage a large, complex bureaucracy in the 21st century," said another senior EU official, reflecting widespread worries about his management credentials.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/27/eu-democratic-bandwagon-juncker-president-wanted

Absolutely fascinating reading this now... (only from 2014)..

Cameron is taking a lot of the blame. His uncompromising public campaign to destroy Juncker might have had heads nodding privately in agreement.

Cameron was not alone in his miscalculation. There is enough blame to go round. The fight over Juncker feature double-crossing, broken promises, manipulative spinning, and leaders pirouetting in 180-degree U-turns within days. Juncker's ascendancy has its roots a decade back in the Convention on Europe that prepared the EU's doomed constitution, felled in 2005, but resurrected by the Germans in 2007 in the form of the Lisbon Treaty that came into force at the end of 2009

Unless it is you being obtuse

Shock!!

Well Optionobtusal, the positive thing is that you read the Guardian. However why do you not criticise the EU election and EU leadership roles of Roy Jenkins,Margaret Thatcher,Tony Blair,John Major,Jim Callaghan etc?

Junckers (former Luxembourg PM) was democratically elected to his turn as President.He may not have been chosen by the largest majority ever, but he's only 2 years left anyway so it's old news.

He was elected to his turn by 422 votes out of the 729 total votes cast. With 79 elected British MEPs on that occasion we had a 10.8% opportunity to influence the appointment.

However you are open minded enough to read the Guardian so that's impressive and encouraging.What about this other article in there on the titanic disaster of your beloved Hard Brexit?

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/04/hung-parliament-can-halt-brexit-disaster

OptiinalRationale are you Daniel Hannan really?

Today 07:23 lonelyplanetmum
Why do you not criticise the EU election and EU leadership roles of Roy Jenkins,Margaret Thatcher,Tony Blair,John Major,Jim Callaghan etc?

I do. The EU as an institution is flawed by design and has been made progressively worse with its evolution (under the Treaties of Maastricht and Lisbon). The Executive branch of the EU lacks democratic accountability

Junckers (former Luxembourg PM) was democratically elected to his turn as President.

You and I use the term "democratically elected" very differently. For me, democratically elected has to mean elected by the people, ordinary citizen voters, in an open free and fair election where there are genuine alternatives, and the people have the power to get rid of them if they are doing a crap job at the next election. It is entirely within the power of British citizens to get rid of Theresa May tomorrow. There is no mechanism for European citizens to get rid of Junkers.

He was elected to his turn by 422 votes out of the 729 total votes cast.
The EU parliament lacks any legislative initiative. It can only vote on potential options given to it by the executive. As the Guardian points out, the outcome of Junkers "victory" in the EU Parliament was a foregone conclusion This is not democracy in my book. It is a perversion of the Napoleonic/Prussian model of Government that the EU is based on

Today 09:59 Theworldisfullofidiots
Are you Daniel Hannan really? No.
Are you the only person in the world who not an idiot?

No but sometimes I wonder, hence my name (it was changed post Brexit). I especially wonder given that the likely outcome of Brexit is recession and I worry about education funding in particular. I'm hoping that if we educated our children well we will have less badly thought through idiotic notions in the future. At least in this area I live in hope.

...and the people have the power to get rid of them at the next election

Yup.Normally in both the UK and EU your main chance to change those elected is at the end of their term.

At least it has now sunk in that Brits like Roy Jenkins,Margaret Thatcher,Tony Blair,John Major,Jim Callaghan etc have held dominant EU leadership roles. Even Trezza would have done if she hadn't declined the opportunity.

I am interested that in your book, votes by any M.P.s (or MEPs) aren't democratic! Presumably you find all legislation undemocratic too as the people don't vote directly? Come on Opt -in -all you can do better than that.

British citizens can't normally get rid of a P.M. mid term. Of course there can be a vote of no confidence by the M.P.s. ( and MEPs) but that is very rare.Anyway that's not a vote by the people directly, so you would find that undemocratic n'est ce pas.

We can only get rid of May tomorrow as an election was called...Here's hoping, until all hope (and the NHS) dies in the early hours on Friday.

P.S. curiously remembering the hard/soft theme of the thread did you read that article about the Titanic disaster that awaits?....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/04/hung-parliament-can-halt-brexit-disasterr_

Today 14:41 lonelyplanetmum
Normally in both the UK and EU your main chance to change those elected is at the end of their term. Correct. But in the EU all the really big decisions (e.g. that underpinned Maastricht and Lisbon) were made by single term Eurocrats "elected" by other politicians not the people.

At least it has now sunk in that Brits like Roy Jenkins,Margaret Thatcher,Tony Blair,John Major,Jim Callaghan etc have held dominant EU leadership roles. I didn't see anyone arguing this.

I am interested that in your book, votes by any M.P.s (or MEPs) aren't democratic! Presumably you find all legislation undemocratic too as the people don't vote directly? Laws should be made by representatives directly elected by the people. In the EU, the "parliament" lacks legislative initiative. Laws are made by the Executive. The only thing that MEPs get to vote on are options that Junkers chooses to put in front of them. This is the democratic inversion that lies at the heart of the design of the EU.

British citizens can't normally get rid of a P.M. mid term. Of course there can be a vote of no confidence by the M.P.s. ( and MEPs) but that is very rare.Anyway that's not a vote by the people directly, so you would find that undemocratic n'est ce pas. Votre francais c'est tres tres formidable.

We can only get rid of May tomorrow as an election was called...Here's hoping, until all hope (and the NHS) dies in the early hours on Friday. Celebrate your freedom. You have far, far more power and opportunity to get rid of May than I do to get rid of Junkers.

P.S. curiously remembering the hard/soft theme of the thread did you read that article about the Titanic disaster that awaits Yes.

Today 12:50 Theworldisfullofidiots
I'm hoping that if we educated our children well we will have less badly thought through idiotic notions in the future. I live in hope

You're an inspiration Theworldisfullofidiots. The most important lesson we can teach the young is those who disagree are idiots. Bless you.

Thank you for your blessings you are most kind.
And you have reminded me of the rule in my house. Don't argue with idiots. Thanks for the reminder. Again most kind.
It seems this is the thread that keeps on giving

Today 21:43 Theworldisfullofidiots
And you have reminded me of the rule in my house. Don't argue with idiots

Tell me, how do you teach your children who is / is not an idiot? Wait let me guess...