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Brexit

Westministenders: Its WAR. Huh!? What is that good for? Negotiations apparently

996 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2017 22:39

Theresa May has declared war on the EU. She is going to be a ‘bloody difficult woman’ after she got caught out by a highly predictable leak.

Apparently, the EU are trying to rig an election she seems almost dead cert to win. They deliberately timed the leak to interfere with an election May decided the timing of. May was not supposed to be at the dinner, but after she announced the election she decided that she had to get in on the act for some reason. Wildly speculating here, but could this be because she wanted the political mileage herself?

No it wasn't a preplanned strategy. Don't be stupid. That would suggest they had the foggiest clue and a plan. Nope, the war declaration was an opportunist damage limitation exercise, used to maximise political capital.

She has now even further alienated the EU. It seems difficult to conceive how any deal will be done. Instead it looks like the election is trying to set us up to crash out. Whether the ‘No deal is better than a bad deal’ happens to make the 3 page Tory Manifesto remains to be seen.

This would leave EU nationals and British national aboard in legal and social limbo.

There is also a feud building over the Brexit leaving bill, which is steadily climbing. We can not progress to the second stage of Brexit without resolving this. Again, this seems unlikely.

Thirdly, a settlement with Ireland is a top priority for the EU, and plans are being drawn up to make allowances for any potential United Ireland. This is a subject that is still to be talked about on any level really. May has been much more interested in the fate of Scotland and battling with Nicola Sturgeon.

That’s the thing. May is like the playground bully who goes around going “Do you wanna scrap ?, Do ya? DO YA?” and generally throws their weight around and most of the time gets their own way as a result. The trouble with the strategy is when the bigger kid comes along and thumps the bully, for being a cocky little shit and doesn’t like their kid brother getting picked on.

The trouble is that May is setting it up, to try and make it look like the poor little Britain has been picked on to her parents, so they go around accusing the big kid of all sorts rather than admitting their little darling is a nasty little shit.

It’s not going to end well is it? You can’t help but feel that at some point they’ll all end up in the Headmasters office and the WTO/UN/International Courts will rule against us for being a bunch of dickheads. No doubt May, will stick to character, hold a grudge and demand to leave them or say they have no authority over the UK.

That or we really will end up declaring war on Spain over Gibraltar. By accident of course. Probably to keep the ConKip party together and avoid a split.

Rule Britannia. Britannia rules. Erm, not a lot these days.

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BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2017 19:16

Since the Tory party has now absorbed UKIP and the sectarian Unionists in Scotland and NI, I propose they rename their party to
UCON

HesterThrale · 06/05/2017 19:20

Just happened to catch Any Questions last night with Sarah Olney, Emily Thornberry, Nigel Farage.

Farage called the EU 'bad people....thugs and bullies.'
The general consensus from the audience was that UKIP were finished.

Emily Thornberry and Sarah Olney came across quite well, I thought.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08ns2m4

IrenetheQuaint · 06/05/2017 19:26

Even those who funded the Brexit campaign think May is being too hardline:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/06/brexit-donor-peter-hargreaves-rights-eu-nationals-theresa-may

Confused
HPFA · 06/05/2017 19:28

Just happened to catch Any Questions last night with Sarah Olney, Emily Thornberry, Nigel Farage.

Many people have pointed out that the one seat UKIP will never lose is the permanent one on Question Time.

mathanxiety · 06/05/2017 19:30

math were you doubting the truth of the comment about "North African pirates"?

I was doubting the suggestion by the commentator that Britain was a victim of some widespread and awful attack during a time when the Empire was swallowing up vast swathes of territory all over the world, and well on its way to ruling the waves.

This was a time when plantations (i.e. expropriations of land and ethnic cleansing on a large scale) occurred in Ireland, with natives pushed onto marginal land regardless of the human consequences, replaced by loyal English protestant soldiers and yeoman farmers, a time when Irish people were exported to the West Indies and a status somewhere near slavery - 'to Hell or to Connaught' was the motto of Oliver Cromwell. The highlands of Scotland also suffered 'depopulation'.

Despite the effect on coastal Spain of pirate raids, the Spanish and Portuguese managed to take over South America, big chunks of the Caribbean and Central America. The Spanish Armada was a greater threat to Britain X 1000s than pirates ever were. In these years too, the enslavement of millions of Africans and transport to the New World took place, to the enormous financial benefit of Britain.

I haven't even got to the conquest and subjugation and exploitation of India or huge swathes of Africa.

All of this was so unhampered by the Barbary pirates that they occupy only a well-deserved footnote in histories of the period in which they were active.

mathanxiety · 06/05/2017 19:32

...And there is also the execrable element of whipping up current day anger towards North Africans.

woman12345 · 06/05/2017 19:46

I learn so much here, thanks Smile
On the Catholic influence on EU, I only heard of that recently and the EU flag referencing the Virgin Mary, BigChoc.
UCON sounds right.
When this shit started fan wards, there was comparison with Henry V111's separation from Rome. Again, this might be why there's a false historical expectation that like the Reformation led to the affluent Elizabethan age, Brexit will lead to patriotic affluence courtesy of the empire Britain doesn't now have. Elizabeth affluence was financed by the slavery you mentioned above, math , and free movement of people. London then was more multi cultural than it had ever been, hence Shakespeare's black girlfriend.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2017 19:47

Torygraph paywall: Theresa May must "use a landslide victory to fix Britian" Hmm

< gives you an idea of what they plan to do to you >

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/06/theresa-may-must-bold-like-margaret-thatcher-use-landslide-victory/

"Mrs May’s superb impersonation of Mrs Thatcher in standing in Downing Street and wielding the full handbag over the bullies of Brussels" < bully =transparency, no special deal >

"a once in a generation opportunity to sniff out what is wrong with Britain, and to fix it"

"One such serious problem – of many – is the National Health Service."

"That means an insurance system for elderly care, which is one of the main causes of that strain.

It means an audit of every post in the NHS, removing those non-medical staff whose jobs are not essential but who were brought into the NHS under Gordon Brown to help massage the then rising unemployment figures.

It means
stopping many non-essential treatments on the NHS,
making in-patients pay for food,
charging for certain GP services and
reducing the massive exemptions from prescription charges, which should be means-tested.

And this re-thinking of the NHS should initiate
comprehensive welfare and fiscal reform to improve the incentives for people to take responsibility for their families."

< I gather some Leavers voted because they wanted to protect the NHS.
Is the NHS - as we know it - safe with the Tories ? >

HashiAsLarry · 06/05/2017 19:52

I have decided to stop feeling powerless and embrace the powers given to me by the Brexiteers.

I am a remoaner. My whining has the power to destroy economies, ruin negotiations, end free trade, close or move businesses, make the police falsify their figures. I am powerful as fuck.

ElenaGreco123 · 06/05/2017 19:52

BigChoc I remember the anxiety over the EU flag which for some seems to represent the Virgin Mary hence Catholic.

ElenaGreco123 · 06/05/2017 19:52

Sorry woman x-post

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2017 19:54

woman Some key CDU politicians, especially Adenauer, also Helmut Kohl, helped shape the then EEC, EC and eventually EU.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2017 20:05

Several major Leave campaign donors are advocating that E27 expats retain their current rights
(May wants to reduce those rights to the minimum that non-EU enjoy)

They are also positive about what those expats bring to the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/06/brexit-donor-peter-hargreaves-rights-eu-nationals-theresa-may

Badders123 · 06/05/2017 20:10

My hope is that may knows all this
And that all this posturing and far right language is just to get the votes

woman12345 · 06/05/2017 20:12

Who else is noticing that whatever Trump's up to, is flying our way too (not surprising when they are all funded by the same creeps):
Abandon Obamacare; Remove NHS

A lot of Trump voters who relied on Obamacare, didn't expect/realise he would get rid of it.
A lot of May supporters who rely on the NHS don't expect/ realise she will get rid of it.

A vote for May is a vote for the abolition of the NHS.

Cailleach1 · 06/05/2017 20:18

I think the designer of the EU flag said he got inspiration from the crown of stars the BVM sometimes is depicted with. Stars were already in use in previous emblems of the Council of Europe or somesuch, sans BVM inspiration. The circle of stars on flag is supposed to represent unity. I would be so bold as to think the circle is like Arthur and the round table. No head, all equal. I highly doubt there is literal religious significance to be from it.

mathanxiety · 06/05/2017 20:24

I'm with SapphireStrange.

It is a sad day when the gutter press and a bunch of fascists effectively take over the political agenda.

PR would have prevented this.

woman12345 · 06/05/2017 20:27

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Europe
An article posted in La Raison in February 2000 further connected the donation of a stained glass window for Strasbourg Cathedral by the Council of Europe on 21 October 1956. This window, a work by Parisian master Max Ingrand, shows a blessing Madonna underneath a circle of 12 stars on dark blue ground.(twelve is also the number of members of the congregation's council).

I think it's deliberately opaque reference Calleach1 but it's pretty clever semiotics.

It's quite clever to subsume Christianity through the CDU. One way to moderate is to accommodate.

Maybe UKIP should have been put in charge of the pencils. Then they would have felt useful and wouldn't have needed to behave so badly and let the whole country down.Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2017 20:45

woman It is amazing how many Trump supporters are in fact dependent on Obamacare.
e.g.
Two of Donald Trump's strongest supporters - who would die without Obamacare - would still vote for him again:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/obamacare-gop-trump-kentucky-1.4045757

"Robin has diabetes and a heart condition.

Mike has coal worker's pneumoconiosis, also known as black lung disease, an often fatal disease he developed while spending years working as a trucker in the coal industry.

Mike, who's 56, has a tumour in his chest the size of a lemon and can't walk more than about 50 metres without needing help from an oxygen tank to breathe.

Until Obamacare, the Taylors had no health insurance." < Trump supporters Confused Duh >

woman12345 · 06/05/2017 20:52

Trump supporter Matt Drudge now says Republicans ‘should be sued for fraud’
www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02/08/trump-supporter-matt-drudge-now-says-republicans-should-be-sued-for-fraud/

Many Trump supporters didn't know that the ACA was Obamacare.

Will May supporters know that she plans to charge them to visit GP?

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2017 20:54

And many elderly Tories may be prosperous, but couldn't pay privately for major ops and hospital stays.

Before Obamacare ....

I've a huge extended family in the US.
About 20 years ago, my cousin's DH suddenly lost his job as a well-paid chemical engineer - they all went in to work to hear the division was being shut down from that very day, to cut costs.

Their health insurance was from their employer, so was lost immediately. No redundancy pay either.

They had total panic, as my cousin has a longterm spine condition that has needed several expensive ops, i.e. she's uninsurable, costs 1000s annually inconsultations and may suddenly need a $100k op or 1000s
Fortunately, he found another job within weeks ( he was v highly regarded) but if he hadn't .....

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2017 20:59

Didn't know ACA is proper name of Obamacare
That's the trouble with the slogans and names the hard right uses - they are not just silly; they are deliberately intended to fool voters.

Well, many Leavers - including politicians ! - thought the UK was guaranteed a special deal
That's mostly why the utter fury now against the EU, for treating the UK just like any other non-EU country.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2017 21:00

I mean some voters didn't know - most Westminstenders did !

woman12345 · 06/05/2017 21:03

Sounds terrifying, BigChoc glad it worked out for him in the end.

There's another US story of a husband killing his wife because they couldn't afford medicine. Bigly posted it on Trump thread.
www.nytimes.com/2016/05/20/us/florida-man-says-he-killed-sick-wife-because-he-couldnt-afford-her-medicine-sheriffs-say.html?_r=2

Emmanuel Macron hacked emails: French media ordered by electoral commission not to publish content of messages. Journalists could face criminal charges for violating laws preventing influence on vote
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-email-hack-leaks-election-marine-le-pen-russia-media-ordered-not-publish-commission-a7721111.html

When, inevitably, hacked emails are found on JC, we know how May's press will react.

OlennasWimple · 06/05/2017 21:08

BigChoc - it might vary from state to state, but many states provide or require continuation of coverage of health insurance for three months after employment is terminated. Still not ideal, especially in the job market today, but at least the spectre of losing health coverage overnight is gone for many people.

One thing that has really struck me working in the US is that the amount of hours spent by employers managing health insurance is incredible. Even if claims are managed directly by the insurer, the employer still has to select a scheme; be confident that it meets their needs and they can afford the employer contribution; run annual information and enrolment exercises.... These are costs that I would wager most of those advocating that the NHS should move closer to the American model have completely overlooked. Are British businesses ready to pick them up? I doubt it