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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

    May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

    Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  6. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

    The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  7. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

    Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  8. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  9. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  10. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  11. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  12. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

    Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

    Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.
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Cailleach1 · 07/04/2017 19:27

I know that chemical weapons are atrocious. Like other weapons and the misery they cause. I was just thinking about how children were also killed by the US in their recent attack on Yemen. I didn't hear Trump's speech on how dreadful that was. Did I miss it? Maybe the ones killed didn't fit into the category of 'child of God'.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/donald-trump-us-military-attack-yemen-civilians-women-children-dead-a7553121.html

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GreenPeppers · 07/04/2017 19:33

A question for you all. JEremy Hunt has put a system inn place asking NHS trust to check passport of people and ask for payment upfront before treating people
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/07/passport-checks-patients-nhs-principles-health-tourists

Can someone explains to me how it's supposed to work as you can have a non British passport and still be entitled to full NHS cover???

Apart from the fact it will be a lot fo work for a drop in the ocean re costs and will lead to racial discrimination 'you don't look British, can I see your passport?' Attitude....

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lalalonglegs · 07/04/2017 19:56

It's pointless. Peppers, but it will play well to the right-wing press. Hopefully, doctors will refuse to play along.

Meanwhile, Michel Barnier has been lobbying not to let the UK revoke A50 unilaterally. This is bad news:

Senior Brussels sources say Michel Barnier asked for the line stopping the UK from unilaterally reversing the process to be included in a European parliament resolution that passed on Wednesday. The move came amid fears in Brussels that Theresa May could “abuse” the process to extend talks when the two-year negotiations are over. The European parliament’s resolution subsequently made clear the withdrawal process could only be stopped with the consent of the other 27 member states.

There are concerns among some in the EU that May could be tempted to revoke article 50 once it becomes evident that the two years allowed under the Lisbon treaty is insufficient time for the talks, only for her to then trigger the withdrawal clause once again, artificially extending the negotiating period.

The European commission believes that the EU treaties would not allow such a unilateral action. However, the alleged request from Barnier suggests some nervousness about what Britain would be prepared to do as the countdown begins on the two years of talks.

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StainlessSteelButtercup · 07/04/2017 20:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SwedishEdith · 07/04/2017 20:13

The Irish Times - Brexiteers prove that stupid is as stupid does. It has some good articles from, literally, the other side.

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexiteers-prove-that-stupid-is-as-stupid-does-1.3040420

Matt Frei's programme on Trump the other night was good. The Trumps see themselves as destined to rule, nature over nurture. Oh dear.

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GreenPeppers · 07/04/2017 20:17

Well I am an eu citizen so no visa for me.
It doesn't say whether I'm entitled to free care though. I cpouod be on hols and whatever....

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GreenPeppers · 07/04/2017 20:18

I've never been asked for a passport until now. This could get fun....
Maybe I need to dig out my NHS card instead as a proof I am entitled to NHS treatments (which sounds more logical to me btw)

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StainlessSteelButtercup · 07/04/2017 20:22

This reply has been deleted

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PattyPenguin · 07/04/2017 20:22

It's not passports that prove entitlement to NHS care. It's a residence based system.

You can have a non-UK passport and be eligible for NHS care as you're "ordinarily resident" here.

You can have a UK passport and not be entitled to NHS care if you live permanently abroad.

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StainlessSteelButtercup · 07/04/2017 20:26

This reply has been deleted

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Melassa · 07/04/2017 20:27

Well I have a British passport but am resident and pay my taxes elsewhere, so I'm not actually entitled to NHS care. I would have used my EHIC of the country I'm resident in.

As usual, it makes no sense.

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Melassa · 07/04/2017 20:27

Cross posts

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StainlessSteelButtercup · 07/04/2017 20:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mistigri · 07/04/2017 20:44

Lots of incentive to game the system there, and plenty of gaps for poor people to fall through (does this mean homeless people will no longer be entitled to NHS care?). I'm British but currently have no right to NHS care; however it would be easy for me to produce a passport and a bank statement with a UK address.

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GreenPeppers · 07/04/2017 20:47

That's why the article goes on about how it will to racial discrimination.
People who look British enough won't get asked. But the ones who dont will.
If you had the fact that not everyone has a passport, that you can easily have a bank statement with a UK address even if you don't live here etc... I'm struggling to see how this system is going to work.

Or rather it will be detrimental to the weakest members of the society again, as misti was pointing out :(

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RhuBarbarella · 07/04/2017 20:56

Tim Farron supports Trumps air strikes on Syria. Why I support Trump’s Syria strike – Tim Farron

gu.com/p/68ztt?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

So much for the new found common sense in the LDs? I'm not sure how after this its still sensible to vote for them. It seems like an Iraq moment to me.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2017 20:58

The poorest and most vulnerable could have difficulty accessing the NHS, because they may not have proof of address, or even photo ID.

After my dad died, we lost the house, so Mum & I were homeless for about a year.
We just stayed in the house of various friends.
I had just started Grammar school and I didn't have an address to give, or even a phone number (late 1960s, many folk didn't have a landline, no mobiles then)

Despite the misery and insecurity then, at least we could access the nhs without any problem:
there wasn't such a shortage of GPs then and no formalities - we just said the address we were staying at, no proof needed, no ID either.

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ElenaGreco123 · 07/04/2017 21:00

GreenPeppers I do not mean to worry you, but some people who look and sound British get asked their passports. My friend who is a nurse went with her DD to London to see a show. In London her DD got I'll and needed A&E treatment and hospital staff demanded to see the child's passport. "They kept asking us where we are from" she said. "Newcastle. Isn't it obvious?" The DD got treated, but my friend got really pissed off.

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ElenaGreco123 · 07/04/2017 21:01

BCF Flowers

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Melassa · 07/04/2017 21:09

But the concept of "residence" doesn't exist in the UK in the same way it does in the "Napoleonic law" countries, so it is easy to claim residency if you have a relative with a UK address to which some post still arrives. Until a couple of years ago I still had a UK bank account and statements and other communications were sent to my Mum's address in the UK, so I would have had proof I was a UK resident even though I'm not. It would have involved a cross check if council tax or similar to ascertain i wasn't actually resident but it's unlikely anyone would have checked.

Where I live I have an electronic health card with my tax code on it which also has my residency status, so an admin person at a hospital just needs to put in the reader and all is immediately verifiable. It's not an ID card, that is entirely separate.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2017 21:25

Thanks, Elena I think far more DC nowadays don't have the security of a fixed address.

The Uk may be heading towards the US system, where for anything except emergency treatment, there is a check that you are covered by insurance.

The NHS could introduce a (modern) health card, which works well in the EU countries I've known.
However, I'm sure there would be the usual costly UK govt IT disaster - which those other countries don't seem to have to the same extent.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2017 21:30

My German GP scans health cards.
(Well not mine - I'm privately insured and my minor ailments have never reached the level at which that insurance takes over. GP fees are surprisingly low)

It's excellent that regardless of state or private insurance, we all access the GP the same way - and we can also obtain as standard a same day appointment

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woman12345 · 07/04/2017 21:34

BCF similar to you, as in child hood bereavement. Thank goodness for the welfare state, otherwise I don't know what would have happened to me too. Funny old business, and sorry for your loss, it shapes one's world, doesn't it.

I have heard that dark chocolate is particularly health enhancing, that must explain your minor GP visits Smile

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Mistigri · 07/04/2017 21:43

It's bizarre to ask for passports when the basis of NHS entitlement is residence.

I suspect all these changes are about making the UK a "hostile environment" rather than effectively combatting the (relatively) tiny impact of health tourism.

The UK could introduce cards like we have here in France but I can imagine the IT disaster that would be. The French system is pretty seamless: you hand over your card (carte vitale), and a few days later you get reimbursed by the state system and if appropriate your top-up insurer. It doesn't prevent health tourism though: I took my mum to the GP when she was here at Christmas and he waved away her EHIC and put the consultation through on my carte vitale Grin.

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PlectrumElectrum · 07/04/2017 21:51

Placemark

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