Westminstenders: And so it begins

[RedToothBrush]

Promises made that can not be kept.

We have already fallen at the first stumbling block: the desire for parallel talks on exit and future relationship that May wanted has been rejected. Not that this is a surprise seeing as we were told this.

This isn't two years of negotiations for a good deal. Forget any suggestions that it is. It's two years of damage limitation and domestic pr.

For both the UK and EU.

I do believe that May's attitude - which seemed to be more friendly in her speech and letter yesterday - has burnt all our bridges.

This talk of the world needing the EU's 'liberal democracy' isn't aimed at the EU though. Her use of the words that produced uproar in the HoC yesterday was deliberate. Why use it? It was always going to produce a reaction.

When May says she will have a consensus at home to achieve this goal one of two things must happen: to prove just how much we need the EU to make a political reversal possible at the expense of her head or to vilify the EU to a point that Remainers suddenly change their mind.

To get a good deal for the UK she can not satisfy her hard line Brexiteers. It is impossible purely because to do otherwise is like breaking the laws of physics. Trade is done mostly with who you are closest too. This is the inescapable truth. We are leaving the EU but not Europe as keeps being pointed out.

If we want to trade we have to accept EU regulations. If we do not, we do not trade. Rules we can now no longer influence by must obey.

We can not reduce immigration. We have had control of non-Eu immigration and that is not going down due to skills shortages. To combat this schools are getting less money.

In terms of sovereignty and British parliament we just gave that away. The 'Great' Repeal Act is a power grab by the executive. It seems to give the powers of the monarch to Mrs May and take them away from parliamentary scrutiny. At the same time we are forced to become beholden to Trump's America. A man who screws people for a living and has not a shred of honour.

Using security as our bargaining chip misses the obvious. If we do not cooperate we endanger Brits abroad and ourselves domestically. Are we really prepared to stop?

The opportunities of Brexit Britain are bleak. This will be normalised.

Good luck folks. We are gonna need it.

Um where did Livingstone deny the holocaust?

Secondly, historically its correct that there was a scheme that allowed Jews to use assetts to move to Palestine, whether that makes Hitler a Zionist ? No it doesn't, but it helped the Zionist cause of settling Jews in Palestine, but did so inadvertently. He's wrong to suggest this.

Is it worth the massive kicking Labour are getting over this? No.

Especially when many of the press doing it were anti Jewish refugees, and sided with Hitler and the black shirts here. Their sensibilities towards refugees now are as bad as they were then.

Over in Wales, Mark Reckless as an Assembly Member is set to defect from UKIP, and try to go back to the Tories. The Tories are being a bit difficult about having him back.

weapons sale in the gymnasium

Someone wrote a while ago that they'd know the UK had it right when schools and hospitals were fully funded, and the army had to do a sponsored walk to get a new tank.

I love that LH!

I do have an issue with the idea of a 'Jewish Labour Movement'. Why on earth is there some separation within the Labour Party according to religion (or race)? or gender presumably? I am shocked at these comments, both Green and Howabout

If a particular minority has issues, then surely it is right they come together to focus on those issues and try to foster greater understanding and action to overcome them. It is very evident to me, and I might add to my certain knowledge, a lot of young people, particularly the politically active, that the Labour Party has a serious issue with racist, homophobic and sexist attitudes. At least the Jewish Labour movement is staying within the party to fight its corner whilst staying true to the principles of the Labour movement. Sadly many people, especially the young, are disillusioned by it and alienated.

The Labour Party does need to act to ensure that it is very clearly acting on its principles and has zero tolerance of its dinosaur wing....

I had quite a lot of contact with Livingstone when he was Mayor and I suppose this goes to show that with age does not necessarily come wisdom....

ron I am not denying the issue but:
1 I think it is bonkers to suggest the attitudes and prejudices are predominant in Labour rather than other political parties
2 I think the focus on identity politics can do nothing but exacerbate the problem by highlighting differences rather than uniting people around commonalities.

An example to clarify. When my DD2 was 5 I spent 6 months trying to work out how to style her hair in the same way as her best friend. My DD has poker straight hair. It never occurred to her to tell me that her friend had afro-caribbean hair. Would that every other young person in the UK was growing up so blind to such differences, rather than being constantly corralled towards tribal politics.

howabout Exactly, young people in general do not have these emotional reactions to difference and that is why they are disgusted when they encounter them. I do mix with the politically active young people at a university and the alienation I am talking about is real. Given the Labour Party has members who are capable of antisemitism, racism, homophobia, and sexism then clearly they do need to have groups to highlight the issues so they can be addressed and to manifestly have zero tolerance . It is not just that they are alienating younger voters, as a woman I would not be attracted to stand for Parliament for the Labour Party even if I had the political beliefs, I would not feel that I would be supported and protected from sexism even if there is a special interest group.

Of course these attitudes are even more present in the Conservative Party though women do at least have the benefit of doing a Thatcher to get around it but then they blatantly do not even pretend to stand for fairness and equality and have no interest in engaging young voters

It reminds me of the fact that my parents maybe because of our South African roots brought me up to be blind towards religion, race, class.

I was in my late 20s before I found out that you can (supposedly) "tell" if someone was Jewish by their look or name. It was (and is) irrelevant to me.

I had to be told by dh (lapsed Catholic) that in Glasgow there used to (and still is in some places) prejudice against Catholics, to the extent that if they couldn't tell if you were Catholic from the secondary school you went to, they'd ask at interview what primary school you went to

I've since been told that that's why some of the law firms were set up by Jewish & Catholic partnerships, as they were experiencing similar discrimination.

More evidence of the Free trade brexiteers chasing unicorns. India is demonstrating its disinterest by letting existing investment agreements lapse even as Hammond visits, www.ft.com/content/5fef7796-1914-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

And on how embarrassing it was to accompany May there, "I feel truly ashamed" www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/i-feel-truly-ashamed-keith-burnett-theresa-mays-trade-mission-india

pretty i think I have a similar outlook than you. Fur me race or religion should never be a mean to segregate so the idea that you could do so within a political party, who will be representing 'the people' is making me uncomfortable.
How can they claim to look after everyone if they segregate within their own party?
Probably showing my roots there too.

Rondo, the free trade brexiteers genuinely haven't realised that times have moved on from the age of empire.

Most of the countries wanting a FTA are ones that already have agreements with the EU. Some like South Korea want better terms than they have with the EU.

I actually don't disagree with groups within organisations to draw attention to the particular issues (and the fact that there was a Jewish Labour group shows that there was an issue).

When an organisation has an institutional bias, it takes groups like that to point it out, as they are otherwise sometimes blissfully, sometimes pigheadedly unaware of it.

In the same way that women's groups had to point out that, eg, the hours of Parliament and no crèche during Scottish holidays Demonstrate a lack of awareness of childcare issues, because it was something that an organisation led primarily by men without primary childcare responsibilities had ever had to worry their little heads about consider.

But grouping together doesn't mean segregation - it's a way of making sure that minority issues (often very real) are addressed and about sharing an identity. If, as a PP, said, 70% of Jews traditionally vote Conservative, having a prominent Jewish Labour grouping challenges that assumption. It's no different from having a Labour Women's division or whatever - I find arguments against these sorts of groups quite disingenuous.

pretty the women's issues within Parliament are a good example of a double edged sword. If an MP chooses to keep their family base in their constituency rather than Central London, then creches and timing of Parliamentary sittings are of no relevance to them man or woman but may affect Central London MPs. OTOH fully committed MPs doing the job to suit their constituents rather than themselves may do a far better job for everyone - women and families included - feeling rather ragey this am what with watching Panorama on the Benefits cap last night and seeing the raft of benefits cuts coming into force today, largely unopposed and indeed supported if MN is to be believed.

I don't think it was just the lack of a creche - it was also that the HoP had a shooting range. FFS, what do they need a shooting range for?

Ah, makes you feel so proud of the empathy on show doesn't it
rape assessment

Fair point Howabout - but it was just an example about how people in privileged positions have no concept of the difficulties faced by others in a different situation to their comfortable middle or upper class lives own status quo.

FWIW: the MP in my neighbouring constituency (the boundary is literally a street away) has been very active in opposing the benefit changes, particularly the rape clause, raising a number of early day motions and debates on the subject (and my own MP has been very supportive of her).

I wrote to Catherine Bearder this morning, to thank her for speaking out on behalf of the 48% of us, who did not vote for Brexit, and deploring Farage's comments. I had a reply almost exactly an hour later. I am impressed - my MP usually takes three months to reply, or not at all, depending on the issue.

This is TM's pitch for the local elections. Her attack on the disarray and special interest groups and ideological obsessions within her opponents is entirely predictable and will win votes. This is the easy target I am alluding to.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39501881

The rape clause looks like it may come unstuck in NI as from what I've read, professionals to whom you report rape would be compelled legally to report it to police. So women may get unwillingly sucked into a criminal investigation.

Bloody stupid idea anyway, must have been thought up by a man.*

*Apols for sexism, but surely this is the result of insufficient women in Parliament.

This was discussed a few weeks ago on Woman's Hour. The women who are, in the main, likely to bear children who were conceived by rape are women living in abusive relationships. In these cases, the expert said, they could not tell anyone in authority that they had been raped as it is a distinct possibility that the child (and its siblings) could be removed as the mother would be seen to be putting them at risk. Moreover, iirc, child benefit would stop anyway as it cannot be seen to advantage an abusive parent.

I know I didn't dream it, but a while back there was a thread where the force was strong with the Brexiteers, and one of the issues that was used to "prove" that Brexit was right was the "fact" that Turkey was about to join the EU despite this having been shown to be false a load of bollocks many times.

Just curious as to the Brexiteer silence on the old news that Turkey will be servicing the RAFs most advanced jets:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39501299

I can quite understand the Brexit silence on this - and not just because it uses long words. The underlying reason is that the United States insists that the maintenance is undertaken in Turkey.

(I say old news, as this was being flagged before up last year in tech circles)

So much for sovereignty ....

Yes, Sovereignty only mattered before the vote.