Westminstenders: And so it begins

[RedToothBrush]

Promises made that can not be kept.

We have already fallen at the first stumbling block: the desire for parallel talks on exit and future relationship that May wanted has been rejected. Not that this is a surprise seeing as we were told this.

This isn't two years of negotiations for a good deal. Forget any suggestions that it is. It's two years of damage limitation and domestic pr.

For both the UK and EU.

I do believe that May's attitude - which seemed to be more friendly in her speech and letter yesterday - has burnt all our bridges.

This talk of the world needing the EU's 'liberal democracy' isn't aimed at the EU though. Her use of the words that produced uproar in the HoC yesterday was deliberate. Why use it? It was always going to produce a reaction.

When May says she will have a consensus at home to achieve this goal one of two things must happen: to prove just how much we need the EU to make a political reversal possible at the expense of her head or to vilify the EU to a point that Remainers suddenly change their mind.

To get a good deal for the UK she can not satisfy her hard line Brexiteers. It is impossible purely because to do otherwise is like breaking the laws of physics. Trade is done mostly with who you are closest too. This is the inescapable truth. We are leaving the EU but not Europe as keeps being pointed out.

If we want to trade we have to accept EU regulations. If we do not, we do not trade. Rules we can now no longer influence by must obey.

We can not reduce immigration. We have had control of non-Eu immigration and that is not going down due to skills shortages. To combat this schools are getting less money.

In terms of sovereignty and British parliament we just gave that away. The 'Great' Repeal Act is a power grab by the executive. It seems to give the powers of the monarch to Mrs May and take them away from parliamentary scrutiny. At the same time we are forced to become beholden to Trump's America. A man who screws people for a living and has not a shred of honour.

Using security as our bargaining chip misses the obvious. If we do not cooperate we endanger Brits abroad and ourselves domestically. Are we really prepared to stop?

The opportunities of Brexit Britain are bleak. This will be normalised.

Good luck folks. We are gonna need it.

Kaijai I think that psyops, have been used to great effect over the last 10 years in the west. Maybe the Daily thing should be called the Daily Milgram. Or the People's Pavlov.

Kaija whoops ( they're controlling my keypad)

I am perfectly ok with being disagreed with btw, that's not what riled me.
I think WhatWould has explained much better than I can where my POV comes from (thanks for that ).

Thanks to other posters too.

I always read these threads & all the various viewpoints & links btw and these threads have given me pause for thought on numerous occasions - although I would still vote Leave, many of the regular posters on here have so much knowledge in so many different areas that it is an invaluable source of info (particularly the NI issue).

At the mo I am still exercising my democratic right to be in a massive huff but I cannot tear myself away from these threads in all honesty, so a proper flounce would have been impossible tbh.

(And for the record, I think Michael Howard's comments today were awful - yet another example of a politician bigging up and glamourising war to make a cheap point).

, ,, and/or , whichever is your poison Semi - plus (everlasting, of course )

And for the record, I think Michael Howard's comments today were awful - yet another example of a politician bigging up and glamourising war to make a cheap point

Another example of a cunt politician who has never served in the military advocating war. Unlike soldiers who have served and would happily never go to war again.

Ron, Mo4D (as Semi first named you I think) and Semi.

If someone says 'I will lay down my life for this cause' most people (civvies) dismiss it as overblown rhetoric. But to a member of the armed forces (and I spent 2 decades + in the RN) it is an actual fact. We go where the government sends us and fight when and where we are ordered so to do. It is not our job to question the orders of government (that way lies a military dictatorship). It is up to the civilian population (and this includes mumsnetters ) to argue the case and change the government's mind if it has one.

I'm a bit puzzled by Howard's comments: how would the UK defend Gibraltar as it would either mean sailing round/flying over/invading large parts of Spain to get there from the UK or one of the UK's Mediterranean bases. Of course I hope it doesn't come to that but, if it did, surely it would be absolutely doomed (and Conservative politicians must know that).

Politics trumps economics. That is why the UK are out of the EU. Interestingly Michael Howard said they wouldn't throw Gibraltar under the bus. Spain's trade veto is likened to an invasion. If the UK get a good trade agreement, and Spain vetoes it's application to Gibraltar, will they will walk away? I wonder?

The EU are taking the sovereignty dispute between Spain and the UK over Gibraltar off their table. They are dealing with the UK. Spain has to have any sovereignty dispute discussed separately. However, as a member of the EU27, it will have it's veto over whether any trade agreement with the EU 27 applies to Gibraltar. That is the reality.

Michael Fallon really conflating NATO and the EU. What there is of it, security agreement EU can be sorted out by a separate memorandum of understanding. Not in the trade deal. The main security is Nato. Unless the UK will be leaving NATO as well. Then it would be a bigger issue. At the moment, as non-Schengen, the UK pays for access to the Schengen information system database. Maybe this can continue, but maybe for more cash as it will be a 3rd country. Maybe in separate memorandum.

It is incredible how Gibraltar didn't figure much before and now people are sabre rattling. I have never seen or heard any interest about Fabian Picardo in the UK media before today. During the referendum, there was such an amount of media columns and airwaves given to British sovereignty and the control of borders. Then talk of Spain maybe increasing control along it's border with a non-EU country, has the media and politicians practically making a declaration of war.

The dispute is more than just the original Treaty of Utrecht (although that is a point of contention too). The isthmus (bit connecting the rock to the main body of Spain) is also in dispute for two reasons. To deal with an epidemic in Gibraltar, Spain agreed the British could put buildings on the isthmus area, temporarily. Outside the rock area. The buildings stayed there. Then during the Spanish civil war more land further along the isthmus was used to build the airport for Gibraltar. Both sides arguing they own this land.

www.ft.com/content/a62b292a-ef99-11e6-930f-061b01e23655

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_the_isthmus_between_Gibraltar_and_Spain

All these cans of worms opening at the same time and N. Ireland hasn't even been mentioned yet. By the time it gets to divvying up the debt (never mind the trade agreement), everyone will be beyond reason.

Just to address it briefly for the last time.

First of all I would apologise having upset someone, but not when they have told me to "fuck off" when I have not misquoted them in any way.

Secondly, I did not insult anyone personally. Or even personnel who are deployed. I gave the sequence of the gov't agitating, people getting riled up and armed forces being sent. And we see the agitating and media riling people up in the media even today.

Ok, maybe I will apologise if my phrasing, even if I don't see anything incorrect in what I was saying, hits a sensitive spot (which is caught up in some sort of identity as someone above says). Don't appreciate the fuck off as a protestation or disagreement, though.

If the UK get a good trade agreement, and Spain vetoes it's application to Gibraltar, will they will walk away? I wonder?
it all smacks of contradiction to no deal being better than a bad one doesn't it?

I am not sure that we should confuse that sort of sense of duty with the jingoistic clap trap you get from politicians and I think we should respect it even if it is different to our own values, and what we would put our lives on the line for.

I don't come from a military family (altho both my grandfathers and great grandfathers fought in WW1 & II).

But an ex-bf of mine before I was married was in Special Forces and neither he nor his colleagues were particularly partriotic. They were fairly cynical about the British government, who don't necessarily care about their best interests, who might sacrifice them if militarily necessary, nor did they actually provide enough kit. (V diff to the American SF).

Some of them had been in the army since they were 15-16, quite a lot came from broken homes, their loyalty and duty was to the army and to each other. The army took them in and became their family.

Ime a lot of them were in it for the thrills and the homoerotic camaradarie.

But yes they would lay down their life for 18 people, or for 2. (They do quite a lot of hostage rescue stuff that doesn't get into the papers).

But they love it. When my ex left eventually he really missed it.

Cailleach1 I don't personally think you have anything to apologise for - I think your points were valid, as were SP's.

It angers me that we have the biggest set of negotiations ahead of us since the War and the British Press, and some Politicians cannot get beyond posturing and mouthing off. Michael Howard - the sterling success when he was party leader?

I should say that if he'd ever been deployed in NI I couldn't have gone out with him. Although weirdly an Irish friend of mine's brother served in the British army in NI - which the family had to keep very quiet.

Peregrina

This is kind of what nationalism's all about isn't it - 'all hat and no cattle'.

There's alway posturing in these regimes. They're all going to be felled like a bunch of skittles by the EU though.

If Mike wants to be charging hos own sword rather than talking shite I'd love to see it. It's a fucking play to test the audience. That's what is so sickening

Meet you at Gibraltar Mike. I'll buy you a rose

The Tories realise they can't get the Brexit trade deal they want - all the cake but no FOM or ECJ - so they have been looking for an excuse to flounce out.

Gibraltar would be perfect
Half the country is in a froth of righteous indignation that Spain is threatening to invade them.

Another deliberate populist distortion:
vetoing a deal /= threatening to invade

I am SO angry with the Tories in charge, and the way they're handling Brexit.

I feel like writing a letter to Guy Verhofstadt, simply saying 'Help!'

Do write to Guy he seems quite amenable.

If only there was an EU army. I'd call in the troops.

I'm sure we have all read this but I am so far beyond terrified by this: www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/arron-banks-interview-brexit-ukip-far-right-trump-putin-russia

I am always comforted by the fact bile hurts the arteries

Just my little smile in the face of wankerdom

These people are out of their minds. I am honestly lost for words.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/02/britains-navy-far-weaker-falklands-could-still-cripple-spain/

There are no words. Apart from cunts

And dem not think Europe would fight against us? Cunts. I am ashamed to be english

And they told us to be afraid of an EU army

In a way, it's good it's happened so early. It's certainly going to force a lot of people who rejected the label of "extreme leaver" to pick sides.

Agree with Howard ? Yes you are that thick.

Disagree ? But it''s what you voted for.

What's that ? You didn't vote for this ?

Perhaps you should start telling people then. Like your MP. In writing.