Westminstenders: And so it begins

[RedToothBrush]

Promises made that can not be kept.

We have already fallen at the first stumbling block: the desire for parallel talks on exit and future relationship that May wanted has been rejected. Not that this is a surprise seeing as we were told this.

This isn't two years of negotiations for a good deal. Forget any suggestions that it is. It's two years of damage limitation and domestic pr.

For both the UK and EU.

I do believe that May's attitude - which seemed to be more friendly in her speech and letter yesterday - has burnt all our bridges.

This talk of the world needing the EU's 'liberal democracy' isn't aimed at the EU though. Her use of the words that produced uproar in the HoC yesterday was deliberate. Why use it? It was always going to produce a reaction.

When May says she will have a consensus at home to achieve this goal one of two things must happen: to prove just how much we need the EU to make a political reversal possible at the expense of her head or to vilify the EU to a point that Remainers suddenly change their mind.

To get a good deal for the UK she can not satisfy her hard line Brexiteers. It is impossible purely because to do otherwise is like breaking the laws of physics. Trade is done mostly with who you are closest too. This is the inescapable truth. We are leaving the EU but not Europe as keeps being pointed out.

If we want to trade we have to accept EU regulations. If we do not, we do not trade. Rules we can now no longer influence by must obey.

We can not reduce immigration. We have had control of non-Eu immigration and that is not going down due to skills shortages. To combat this schools are getting less money.

In terms of sovereignty and British parliament we just gave that away. The 'Great' Repeal Act is a power grab by the executive. It seems to give the powers of the monarch to Mrs May and take them away from parliamentary scrutiny. At the same time we are forced to become beholden to Trump's America. A man who screws people for a living and has not a shred of honour.

Using security as our bargaining chip misses the obvious. If we do not cooperate we endanger Brits abroad and ourselves domestically. Are we really prepared to stop?

The opportunities of Brexit Britain are bleak. This will be normalised.

Good luck folks. We are gonna need it.

howabout The "plight of the masses" will not be helped by supporting a hard right government, which continues to slash benefits to fund tax cuts for the better off.

There is nothing "perfectly reasonable" about this hard right Tory govt of incompetents and spivs.

The "centrist / progressives," especially on these threads, continue to attack policies that we think will worsen the standard of living for the less well off.
We oppose a Hard WTO Brexit that will be funded by the less well off, to benefit the oligarchs and hedge-funders.

We also oppose the worst Labour leader in living memory who has abandoned the Official Opposition and is taking Labour into wipeout at the next GE and then many years out of power.

Whatever one's views on Brexit, anyone progressive should be opposing hard right Tory rule that looks set until probably 2030, that will replace the welfare state by a low wage low regulation tax haven.

woman/kaija thank you both for posting the arron banks article. After reading that I went for a long walk in the woods to try and recover equilibrium. Now googling how I can qualify for a shotgun licence as if the country is going to be squeezed dry by people like him it's time to join the preppers.

More on social media manipulation here. This time on bots presenting as Sanders supporters pre-US election:

shareblue.com/watching-the-hearings-i-learned-my-bernie-bro-harassers-may-have-been-russian-bots/

howaboutI'm astonished by the particularly savage attacks by other Leavers on longterm Leave experts like Christopher Booker & Richard North.

CB & the Norths had advocated their carefully worked out EEA / EFTA before the referendum.
All they are doing is stating facts about how trade & customs work, pointing out ignorance & incompetent mistakes that are likely to turn Brexit into a disaster, instead of what they had long hoped and campaigned for.

It's like religious fanatics deciding that the old mainstream are now heretics

Bigchoc, yes couldn't agree more with all of that.

(I meant the 15.14 post, but that too)

So how do we defeat people like Banks and Mercer? It feels like they've got control of the water supply.

Where do we go from here.

My other question would be whether leavers on here are happy to see what Banks et al are doing.

It feels hopeless right now. [gets down ds's fishing rod and prepares to live off the land, counts tins of beans] Banks' expression in that photo with the article makes him look exactly like the White Witch in Narnia. Don't eat any Turkish Delight - an unlikely thing for him to offer round anyway.

Where do we go from here 'When you're going through hell, keep going.' as tory and europhile, W Churchill said.
Vote in May in local elections, strategically, is 48% advice.

And watch out for transference. More of which here, including cross kipper wishing a50 hadn't been triggered. Ha ha (what we were saying threads back)

www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2017/apr/02/unhappy-ukippers-maybe-europe-wasnt-the-issue-brexit-article-50-david-
mitchell

Timing is all, and Banks needs to get that right for his nazi( without the socialist bit ) party, otherwise the other side might have already mobilised. And the 'other side' might have some interesting alliances.

I'm astonished by the particularly savage attacks by other Leavers on longterm Leave experts like Christopher Booker & Richard North.

In fairness, Richard North in particular is savage in his criticism of what he calls the "ultras" (or indeed anyone who supports a hard brexit). He is much less tolerant of brexiters than any of us remainers on here are.

I don't think Booker & North are fielding anything worse than female journalists get on a daily basis. Welcome to the doll house.

I would like to voice mystrong = objection to the benefit cuts - particularly the loss of HB for under 21 year olds. In one article I read some Tory admitted they had never done an impact assessment. (Which can be done very quickly in your head). The loss of £30 a week for new ESA claimants. And the cuts to single parents' benefits.

Where the fucking hell are the Labour party?There is no point having a loony left leader if he doesn't even stand up for his so-called socialist principles.

In fairness, Richard North in particular is savage in his criticism

Yes. He's got quite a tabloid manner - not above calling people 'fucktards' - Julie Burchill could tell him the result of that.

The labour silence is deafening and enabling, Ninon.

There are so many angry Brexiters where are the angry Labour voters?

Can I jump in here and just call Micheal Howard a CUNT. How the fuck dare he spiel that shit in MY COUNTRY's NAME

I will be on the barraicades before that crap ahppened Muver Fucker. It's about time people like YOU Mike listened to the masses

That feels a tiny bit better

PS I am an angry Labour voter and member. Just left the party and for the first time ever will vote for an alternative

I tried being angry and tried to change what was happening. My CLP Bristol West has been taken over by Momentum.

CB & the Norths had advocated their carefully worked out EEA / EFTA before the referendum.

Don't forget that the Leavers' favourite, Farage was also championing EEA 'Norway isn't doing so bad' I recall him saying. Oops. I don't know whether it was carefully worked out in his case.

iirc, Daniel Hannan was also advocating a Norway-type Brexit.

Several prominant Leavers have jumped straight from advocating that to demanding Year Zero, to the cheers of the Torygraph, Daily Excrement & Fail

Those who stuck to their original Brexit proposals are regarded as traitors to The Cause

I'm not worried about North or Booker - they are big boys who can take care of themselves.

It's just concerning that when hardcore Brexiters are so vicious against their own, they would continue to brand Remainers as "traitors" and continue to talk of declaring wars when thwarted.

poorboy The party you left is probably irrelevant as an opposition for the next 10 years or so.
You deserve better for your time and subs

I just want to comment on the remarks made to Semi. Whilst I understand an intellectual point was being made, having married into a military family I do think it is easy to not appreciate the fundamental effect a military background has on identity, and the loyalty to the culture and values that go with it. We have often talked on here about what a fundamental effect the Brexit vote had on our sense of European and global identity but there are other identities that also deserve respect, especially when people do put their lives on the line for them.

The Falklands (and indeed many other conflicts) did not engage the minds of the military involved, but their hearts are in the job. I know that senior British Officers knew full well that there should and nearly was a diplomatic solution, but politicians on both sides needed to mobilise support, both sides equally morally redundant, but they got on with their job, and in some cases lost their lives. Indeed it one of the few examples I know of where Maggie got a big fat No when she tried to wield her handbag and get them to stop mobilising the troops until it suited her political agenda to declare war.

I am not sure that we should confuse that sort of sense of duty with the jingoistic clap trap you get from politicians and I think we should respect it even if it is different to our own values, and what we would put our lives on the line for. I do hope Semi has not gone for good because I think it is an area where we can learn from each other.

Brilliant tweet from Marina Hyde in response to the crazy sabre-rattling:

Brexit's like one of those 70s US university psychology experiments that had to be stopped after descending swiftly into brutality

What whatwouldrondo said is egat I tried to say, but much more eloquently

I do hope that Semi comes back - I do appreciate her viewpoint even though I don't always agree with her