Westminstenders: And so it begins

[RedToothBrush]

Promises made that can not be kept.

We have already fallen at the first stumbling block: the desire for parallel talks on exit and future relationship that May wanted has been rejected. Not that this is a surprise seeing as we were told this.

This isn't two years of negotiations for a good deal. Forget any suggestions that it is. It's two years of damage limitation and domestic pr.

For both the UK and EU.

I do believe that May's attitude - which seemed to be more friendly in her speech and letter yesterday - has burnt all our bridges.

This talk of the world needing the EU's 'liberal democracy' isn't aimed at the EU though. Her use of the words that produced uproar in the HoC yesterday was deliberate. Why use it? It was always going to produce a reaction.

When May says she will have a consensus at home to achieve this goal one of two things must happen: to prove just how much we need the EU to make a political reversal possible at the expense of her head or to vilify the EU to a point that Remainers suddenly change their mind.

To get a good deal for the UK she can not satisfy her hard line Brexiteers. It is impossible purely because to do otherwise is like breaking the laws of physics. Trade is done mostly with who you are closest too. This is the inescapable truth. We are leaving the EU but not Europe as keeps being pointed out.

If we want to trade we have to accept EU regulations. If we do not, we do not trade. Rules we can now no longer influence by must obey.

We can not reduce immigration. We have had control of non-Eu immigration and that is not going down due to skills shortages. To combat this schools are getting less money.

In terms of sovereignty and British parliament we just gave that away. The 'Great' Repeal Act is a power grab by the executive. It seems to give the powers of the monarch to Mrs May and take them away from parliamentary scrutiny. At the same time we are forced to become beholden to Trump's America. A man who screws people for a living and has not a shred of honour.

Using security as our bargaining chip misses the obvious. If we do not cooperate we endanger Brits abroad and ourselves domestically. Are we really prepared to stop?

The opportunities of Brexit Britain are bleak. This will be normalised.

Good luck folks. We are gonna need it.

Gibraltar is also a huge asset in a geopolitical grounds. It's at the door of the Med and therefore will always be a key place to have hold off. It allows control on whoever comes in and out of the Med.
Just look at the comments at the bottom of some articles, calling for sending warships to Gibraltar etc... That's exactely what Britain can do. And it cando it for a lot of very varied reasons....

There is a good reason why Britain and Spain have been fighting over that tiny island for the last 300 years. And that reason hasn't changed, regardless of the self determination talk etc...

It's a good point that the US was founded by colonists who eventually defeated the native population, destroyed their way of life and now massively outnumber them.
This is an example of sufficient might eventually becoming right.
Successful ethnic cleansing.

Some hardline Unionists and hard right Tories have whispered about redrawing the Irish border, to keep a Unionist majority.
However, there is a very politically powerful Irish American lobby, as well as the Irish diaspora in many other developed countries, who would impose sanctions if the UK dared do that.

Everyone has long accepted of course that the descendants of the colonists have absolute right to stay in Ireland.
Just not to redraw the border to rule in perpetuity.

The talk of warships to Gibraltar is not to defend against a Spanish military invasion, which Britain would be entitled and indeed morally right to oppose.

It is in response to Spain being able to veto a Brexit deal, especially on trade.
There is no chance whatsoever that Spain will use military invasion to regain Gibraltar.
Just its veto.

Before Brexit, politicians from Gibraltar kept warning of the consequences to them, but were drowned out by belligerent Brexiters. Telling them Britain could do what it likes, so suck it up.
I'm not impressed by Brexit crocodile tears now.

Gibraltar had the perfect situation for them, being in the EU and a British possession.
Brexiters chose their vote knowing the risk to Gibraltar's interests (or being completely ignorant about Gib)

You own it, you broke it, you fix it

It is the Uk who changed the situation and it is the UK who "owns" Gibraltar.
So it is the UK who has the main responsibility to sort it out.

Spain is basically saying they have an obvious way for Gibraltarians & Spaniards to keep their current economic benefits.
The UK needs to provide its alternative.

The problem with redrawing borders is if they keep doing it they would end up being in the sea!

If Scotland can have a referendum then NI should also be entitled to - if they wish. The Ireland of Ireland has always been a personal quandary to me as although I ideally would want to keep the Union across all the countries I also would like to see a united Ireland (peacefully only)

I really do not think that ardent Leavers really gave all these issues very much thought (I did pre Brexit). More worryingly our politicians still aren't. It's a level of egocentric behaviour which we should all be concerned about no matter which way you voted or what colour rosette you prefer

If our 'opposition' party could get rid of Steptoe and start actually confronting these issues that May is ignoring I would feel a little more reassured

There is a good reason why Britain and Spain have been fighting over that tiny island for the last 300 years

Please someone show me where the island of Gibraltar is.

It does help to control access to the Mediterranean, but is that where key military action now is? It was important when both Spain and the UK had Empires, both now long gone.

It is in response to Spain being able to veto a Brexit deal, especially on trade.

My impression is that this is just a foretaste of what is to come. The Brexiteers talk glibly of the UK reverting to WTO terms, forgetting just how many other countries will have scores to settle and will behave likewise.

I am quite sure that a solution could be found for Gibraltar if the political will was there. It isn't there on the UK's side, and probably not on the Spanish side, but they haven't caused the problem.

Peregrina.... The Rock of Gibraltar

I wonder if the Elgin Marbles were Greeces' red lines ?

Yes Yes Perigrina All those all scores to settle. All those times we have been arrogant. Have relied on our special relationship with the US or our economic and military power to do others over.

Some countries will literally be rubbing their hands. Can betcha that they have been working on the terms THEY are willing to accept for the last 9 months whilst our shysters have been slapping each other on the back

Grumpendorf - I know exactly where the Rock of Gibraltar is. What I am specifically asking (of GreenPeppers) was to tell me where the 'island' of Gibraltar was. Since it doesn't exist, then I think the idea of sending warships is also a fiction.

And all this has come within a week of article 50 being invoked! God help us when we have to put up with two years of this.

Sorry, muddled my tenses in the previous post, but you can get my drift.

Sorry, Peregrina.
I didn't read that far back.

It's alright Gumpendorf, you are forgiven.

Of course the real deal with Gibraltar now is not so much strategy of the Med but its status as a tax haven. Again, follow the money.

Sidebar - horrid news:

"A teenage asylum seeker was left fighting for his life after being beaten in a “brutal attack” by a gang in what police are treating as a hate crime.

The 17-year-old was waiting at a bus stop with two friends in Croydon, south-east London, when he was set upon by about eight youths.
They asked him where he was from, and when he told them he was an asylum seeker they chased after him and launched their attack."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/01/asylum-seeker-fights-for-life-after-hate-attack-in-london

I wonder: Would those thugs have committed such an evil act if they hadn't grown up under the continual demonisation of foreigners by the rightwing media
How many crimes of varyng severity have really been incited by Murdoch, Dacre et al ?

If you yell "kill them" , then that's incitement to murder and you receive a jail term
Effectively do this over 20 years and you receive a knighthood or peerage

And of course, as always, it helps to be a billionaire

Thanks for posting that bigchoc. agree obviously. Provocation and incitement charges would have been appropriate in the olden days.
17 is a child in my eyes. And a child who's been through hell already to get here. What country is this?

I posted earlier that Amnesty International is now campaigning on behalf of British people in Britain ( born elsewhere, but British in my book). Amnesty International, who defend non violent prisoners of conscience.

Unbelievable, what they've done to a fundamentally nice country with nice people. And although the National Front or whatever they call themselves, got only 300 demonstrators today in London, look at the sway they hold over the english press and parliament.

I was gobsmacked when I read your post about Amnesty, woman
How did we end up here ?
Whatever happens wrt Brexit, how can we stop the media churning out hate and inciting the vulnerable ?

In many many ways it's still as racist as it's ever been. For me however I feel NO MORE.

Marches by bald thick fat men with union flags don't bother me. It's the sly insipid racism. That's the one to worry about

Again, in the olden days, the left would have been part of the anti racist opposition. Not the case now. Some of them are in league with the racists now. (It's happened before).

It's the sly insipid racism yep, here on some threads too poorboy sadly. Like a lot of anti Trump workers state, the most dangerous thing is for racism, and fascistic tendencies to be normalised and accommodated.

But amnesty supports those in failed states. How can Britain, which I still have to believe is a fundamentally good place, with flawed and kind humans living in it, like everywhere, be this place now. Or have this government.

Went to a good art exhibition today at Modern Art Oxford, British artist Lubaina Himid. One of the pioneers of the British Black Arts Movement.
Beautiful pieces, and some of them included newspapers going back the last 10 years. It was interesting trying to piece together how this happened.

Another Westminstenders story hits the ms press:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/01/dark-money-threat-to-uk-elections-integrity
"‘Dark money’ is threat to integrity of UK elections, say leading academics. Call to reform electoral law as new fears emerge over role of foreign donations in referendum campaign.

Damian Tambini, director of the media policy project at the LSE, who heads the group made up of leading experts in the field, said that new forms of online campaigning had not only changed the ways that political parties target voters, but crucially had also altered the ability of big money interests to manipulate political debate. “There is a real danger we are heading down the US route where whoever spends the most money is most likely to win. That’s why we’ve always controlled spending in this country. But these controls are no longer working"

And The 48% are urging people to vote tactically in May Elections. I'm going to practise holding my nose and voting Lib Dem for the first time ever.

How long before Louise Mensch catches up with this? I detect hints in RTB's previous link to Ms Mensch's rantings that the veil is starting to lift wrt the existence of native malign influences behind the scenes.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/27/the-reclusive-hedge-fund-tycoon-behind-the-trump-presidency Article on Robert Mercer, the money behind the Trump presidency and also Cambridge Analytics.

Private money has long played a big role in American elections. When there were limits on how much a single donor could give, however, it was much harder for an individual to have a decisive impact. Now, Potter said, “a single billionaire can write an eight-figure check and put not just their thumb but their whole hand on the scale—and we often have no idea who they are.” He continued, “Suddenly [after the Citizens United case] a random billionaire can change politics and public policy—to sweep everything else off the table—even if they don’t speak publicly, and even if there’s almost no public awareness of his or her views.”

This is homegrown money, and there are obscene amounts of it. The philosophy of the man and the daughter who pumped it into the presidential election is nothing short of obscene too.

“There is a real danger that public trust in the democratic process will be lost. There is real potential for foreign influence. We have now the ability to manipulate public opinion on a level we have never seen before. And the current framework is weak and helpless.”
(From the Guardian article shared above.)
This is where Labour has been loosing so bad. This is where their PLP and Corbyn both have failed.

No one stands a chance, if elections are fixed with dirty money. 20+ tory seats in 2015 election: the whole tory majority, potentially. The electoral commission have called it out, and it's a few thousand pound fine. Time is closing in for police investigation. 36 days left.

www.electionexpenses.co.uk

But hopefully the Flynn net will close soon and the trail will then lead closer to home.
Trump storms out of meeting over Flynn questions.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-executive-order-signing-ceremony-storms-out-michael-flynn-russia-questions-oval-office-a7661406.html
Donald Trump has stormed out of an executive order signing ceremony without signing the orders after being questioned over Michael Flynn and Russia.