Westminstenders: And so it begins

[RedToothBrush]

Promises made that can not be kept.

We have already fallen at the first stumbling block: the desire for parallel talks on exit and future relationship that May wanted has been rejected. Not that this is a surprise seeing as we were told this.

This isn't two years of negotiations for a good deal. Forget any suggestions that it is. It's two years of damage limitation and domestic pr.

For both the UK and EU.

I do believe that May's attitude - which seemed to be more friendly in her speech and letter yesterday - has burnt all our bridges.

This talk of the world needing the EU's 'liberal democracy' isn't aimed at the EU though. Her use of the words that produced uproar in the HoC yesterday was deliberate. Why use it? It was always going to produce a reaction.

When May says she will have a consensus at home to achieve this goal one of two things must happen: to prove just how much we need the EU to make a political reversal possible at the expense of her head or to vilify the EU to a point that Remainers suddenly change their mind.

To get a good deal for the UK she can not satisfy her hard line Brexiteers. It is impossible purely because to do otherwise is like breaking the laws of physics. Trade is done mostly with who you are closest too. This is the inescapable truth. We are leaving the EU but not Europe as keeps being pointed out.

If we want to trade we have to accept EU regulations. If we do not, we do not trade. Rules we can now no longer influence by must obey.

We can not reduce immigration. We have had control of non-Eu immigration and that is not going down due to skills shortages. To combat this schools are getting less money.

In terms of sovereignty and British parliament we just gave that away. The 'Great' Repeal Act is a power grab by the executive. It seems to give the powers of the monarch to Mrs May and take them away from parliamentary scrutiny. At the same time we are forced to become beholden to Trump's America. A man who screws people for a living and has not a shred of honour.

Using security as our bargaining chip misses the obvious. If we do not cooperate we endanger Brits abroad and ourselves domestically. Are we really prepared to stop?

The opportunities of Brexit Britain are bleak. This will be normalised.

Good luck folks. We are gonna need it.

there is a huge difference between Scotland wanting independence & Spain wanting Gibraltar. If the Scottish citizens want & vote for independence, so be it - it's their choice. Gibraltar on the other hand appears to not want to be anything other than British.

That's a fair point, though it's also true to say that Gibraltar voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

It may be that Gibralter has to choose, because cake-and-eat-it is no longer on the menu.

pretty the only Scottish judge on the Supreme Court wrote the dissenting opinion against the A50 ruling. The Scottish constitutional law adviser to the HoL was surprised by the HC ruling even before it got to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court confirmed A50 and International Treaties are a matter for Westminster and Holyrood had no locus.

Not sure where Iain McW's loyalties or expertise lie these days. I reckon Gordon Brewer has a marginally better handle on things.

Lots of good articles on my Facebook and Twitter timelines. Enjoyed this one from the FT about the misunderstanding (within the Establishment) of the UK's imperial past

https://www.ft.com/content/e3e32b38-0fc8-11e7-a88c-50ba212dce4d

"They speak warmly of returning to Britain’s historical vocation as a “great trading nation”, when it was actually a great imperial nation. That important distinction leads to overconfidence about the ease of re-creating a global trading destiny, in a world in which Britannia no longer rules the waves."

misti I think the Spanish unemployment rate is high enough already without it risking cutting its people off from Gibralter. Oh and since we are on shipping access anyone know what Spain's NATO contribution is?

Howabout - did you read the article? That's not the angle I took from it at all

He was talking in general terms about the potential for abuse of Henry VIII and even mentions that Holyrood could be "given" a form of them - which the SNP should rightly be wary of.

If Gibraltar gets cut off from the EU then logically some of the employment there will move to the mainland.

It's clear that the people of Gibraltar have been let down by the UK. The fact that it wasn't mentioned in May's letter is rather telling. They probably will have to make some hard choices, because the Gibraltan people's strongly expressed preference - to remain in the UK and in the EU - is very unlikely to be on the menu. I don't personally have a strong opinion on what they should do.

While I disagree with referendums, I think there is probably a good case here for a referendum specifically on the choice between remaining in the UK (and leaving the EU) and remaining in the EU (and loosening ties with the UK).

No I didn't because as I implied I have no respect for the tripe Iain McW is peddling atm. Sad state of affairs as I did used to rate him.

misti as semi points out you wouldn't need a crystal ball to predict the result of a referendum on remaining in the UK in Gibralter. LoL at the prospect of Spain poaching all Gibralter's jobs. If it were that easy they would have done it already.

Just catching up on the news headlines proclaiming UK defence of Gibraltar. The penny has dropped. This is the EU giving the UK some low hanging fruit to bang on about in the same way as the UK have given them EU Nationals, security and the N Ireland border.

For any Gibraltarians please pardon my woeful spelling earlier. I will have to spend the rest of the day referring to myself as Scotch in penance.

misti as semi points out you wouldn't need a crystal ball to predict the result of a referendum on remaining in the UK in Gibralter. LoL at the prospect of Spain poaching all Gibralter's jobs. If it were that easy they would have done it already.

Gibraltar has never been asked to choose between the UK and the EU, and it is clear that it does not want to make that choice. It may have to. Unlike you, I have no crystal ball to tell me which way they would jump.

While Gibraltar is in the EU, there is no obvious reason why businesses would move to the mainland. But if they face significant barriers to trade, some may do so. The number of jobs concerned is relatively small however, and the impacts would not be one-sided - if Spanish people lose the right to work in Gibraltar then some of those jobs may simply disappear, and the companies concerned with them.

Why does every day seem like April Fools' Day now?

Obviously small countries like Indonesia are worried that they might lose out completely.

Indonesia is not a small country. The 2013 figures from the World Bank give the population as 249.9 million (2013). I agree that it's impoverished compared to the West.

As for the loony Brexiters wanting to declare war on Spain - What are we going to do? Ask the French to lend us an aircraft carrier, since we don't have one of our own? We no longer have colonies to defend so the strategic importance of a base in the Mediterranean has gone. And we can hardly blame the EU for the Gibraltar situation - it's been a running sore between Spain and the UK for 300 years now.

It's rare that I'd stoop to referencing the Express, but this article is interesting re Philip Hammond on the Brexit-Gibraltar risk:

www.express.co.uk/news/world/669294/Gibraltar-Brexit-warning-territory-told-handed-back-Spain-UK-quits-EU/amp

Given this issue was raised publicly in advance of the referendum, I'm finding the faux surprise and outrage a little

^^ The faux surprise and outrage comment was directed at politicians and media outlets by the way.

Well it's your loss Howabout. At least that explains why your comments on this occasion sounded so ignorant as they note no relation to the content of the article. If have thought you'd gave been pleased that the SNP would be wary of being dictatorial powers

An interview with Richard Corbett, Labour MEP

http://www.brusselstimes.com/tv/7903/people-are-sending-me-letters-to-say-they-were-told-something-else-about-brexit?utmcontent=bufferebd87&utmmedium=social&utmsource=twitter.com&utmcampaign=buffer

Very considered - although as a good politician he elides beautifully over the lack of proper opposition in the run-up to the invoking of A50.

"was giving Spain a veto over Gibraltar on the Brexit something to potentially encourage them to support an independent Scotland being allowed in EU? A sweetener?"

Michel Barnier went around to the EU27 and asked them what their 'red lines' were. Spain's is Gibraltar.

And will the gov't be as surprised if an issue the WTO throws up is Argentina and the Falklands (or the Malvinas as the Argentinians will call them)?

Why does every day seem like April Fools' Day now?
I'm just making the assumption that the joke is something that sounds like normal news because real news is fricking mental at the moment

And we can hardly blame the EU for the Gibraltar situation - it's been a running sore between Spain and the UK for 300 years now.

I think the key point is that, until Wednesday, both sides of the dispute were represented in the EU, which therefore sat in a neutral, piggy in the middle position.

Now, only one side is an EU member. From the EU point of view, it no longer has any duty to support the UK's position. When it comes to the Gibraltar question, Spain's interest is now the EU's interest.

And will the gov't be as surprised if an issue the WTO throws up is Argentina and the Falklands (or the Malvinas as the Argentinians will call them)?

Absolutely, and we will have the Express and Mail headlines screaming about it, but it was all so utterly predictable. Except of course we were Remoaners peddling Project Fear.

And will the gov't be as surprised if an issue the WTO throws up is Argentina and the Falklands (or the Malvinas as the Argentinians will call them)?

Again, as with Gibraltar, the people who actually live there - who's home it is - have overwhelmingly expressed in referendums that their wish is to remain British.

Gibraltar: 87.9% turnout; 98.97% result.
FI: 91.94% turnout; 99.80% result.

Countries declaring 'ownership' of other countries should not be countenanced in the modern world imo.

And will the gov't be as surprised if an issue the WTO throws up is Argentina and the Falklands (or the Malvinas as the Argentinians will call them)?
This government? Yes. They seemed to be surprised by things such as night following day.

Again, as with Gibraltar, the people who actually live there - who's home it is - have overwhelmingly expressed in referendums that their wish is to remain British.

The Falklands is I think a different question, although ultimately Britain will learn that being part of international organisations requires compromise.

The issue in Gibraltar is that the people there have voted, overwhelmingly, for two incompatible outcomes: remaining in the UK and in the EU. They should of course be given the right to choose which of these unions is more important to them (as should the Scots).

Happy Grootbrexitknop day everyone.

^From energy bills to dental work, it's UK national price hike day
Rising food prices was just the beginning – the cost of almost anything else you can think of will go up from Saturday^

www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/31/from-energy-bills-to-dental-work-stand-by-for-uk-national-price-hike-day

Did someone mention food security?

The issue in Gibraltar is that the people there have voted, overwhelmingly, for two incompatible outcomes: remaining in the UK and in the EU. They should of course be given the right to choose which of these unions is more important to them (as should the Scots).

YY, absolutely.