Westministenders: Danger of "accidental" Brexit (whoops !) ?

[BigChocFrenzy]

i.e. Brexit without a deal - NOT intentionally so - due to UK govt incompetence and mutual UK/EU misunderstandings

The govt is proceeding from abysmal ignorance on a Brexit journey which may blunder into disaster.

Prominent Leave campaigner Richard North:

"The UK Government's narrative seems to rest on the belief that the EU will cave in under pressure, and is thus giving every sign that it is prepared to push negotiations to the wire.

If, on the other hand, the EU are determined not to budge, especially as, with their own White Paper on "The Future of Europe" triggering internal discussions unrelated to Brexit, they are not necessarily fully focused on the "British problem".

As a result, we could end up with an "accidental Brexit",
where the UK negotiators overplay their hand, ending up in the UK leaving without an agreement, forcing it to rely on WTO rules.

Most likely, it will take very little to convince the EU that Mrs May is bluffing – as the effect of the WTO option is likely to be disastrous for the UK economy.

We could thus have each side misreading each other, making the accidental Brexit all the more likely."

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86395

Glad you complained Ron. I absolutely agree there are far too many people in the UK who don't understand that being a public servant means they work for the public.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/24/germany-will-win-the-peace-in-europe-because-of-brexit-says-lord-heseltine

Not much to misunderstand unless he has done a big mea culpa explanation I have missed?

We do come across "Jobsworths" in all walks of life.

I ended up recommending to a friend on another forum not to use "Check and Send" at the post office to renew and just to do it on-line. She's just got divorced and even though she'd never changed her name from her maiden name on her passport, the woman in the post office was claiming that she needed her marriage certificate and proof of her change of name back to her maiden name (This despite the fact that Passport helpline having told her that there would be no problem).

I've never had any problem renewing on-line - not even doing it for my son (15 at the time, so he did need to sign it himself) even though he has a different surname to me and I'm not British born

Vaguely pondering the whole thing, and it finally dawned on me.

Remember when Mrs Thatcher told us there was "no such thing as society" ? Which was the seal of approval on the "me" generation that basically tries to exists in their own bubble.

Brexiters are the international equivalent. Sort of "there is no such thing as the world".

It came to me in a flash of inspiration listening to some Brexiters (it was a bit difficult, as they kept on slavering, and watering at the mouth) discussing how glad they would be when the UK can ignore all the treaty obligations built up over the decades. They really seemed to envisage a future where the UK strides the world stage flipping the bird to all and any countries or treaties that don't suit it.

Or course in the real world, a UK that doesn't honour it's treaties will pretty soon find itself on the receiving end of sanctions before no-one wants to do business with it.

One way to characterise the rise of Trump in the US is to say he's the US version of that mindset. "Fuck the world - who needs it anyway ?"

All my grandparents are dead - with 2 of them not being UK born (although one was US-born) it seems I'm not British enough anymore.

Check and Send is a complete waste of time.

I applied for my first British passport recently. Initially they said I had no right to one as I didn't have a British parent. I was born pre 1982 in England and do have a British parent. Then they told me I had to be a Mrs as I was married as it was illegal to be otherwise.

When I had my interview the otherwise lovely man laughed in my face when I said told him that.

Nationwide said it was not legal for be to keep my maiden name and I HAD to change my name when I got married.

I am no longer with Nationwide.

I must live a charmed life as I've been fortunate not to come across any such antideluvian arses Jobsworths maybe because like Howabout I live in Scotland doubt it, I think it's just pure luck

Given that I've lost both my naturalisation certificate and my birth certificate and god knows where my marriage certificate is they're in the house somewhere, it's just as well that renewing passports on-line is straightforward

howabout, DH got his passport photo done at the postoffice and they said they were fine for his application.

It got rejected because they had done the photo incorrectly. He was not impressed.

It did however take 5 days for DS's first passport to get done and although DH had to get his redone they sent the rejected application back, didn't charge him extra and he reapplied and got back within the space of a month.

I also gone mine done very quickly when I returned from losing mine abroad. Losing your passport abroad is an interesting experience in bureaucracy. The Consulate were very nice it has to be said, and that my application was processed incredibly quickly even for a simple case. I was fortunate (well prepared) in having a photocopy available and having my photo driving licence otherwise I could have been really stranded - and would have had difficulty even getting into the Consulate building. The Consulate said it could be some time (several days) before I could have an emergency passport issued even with this and in other cases they had dealt without this documentation, its much longer. In the end it took just two hours. I have subsequently talked to people who have been stranded for weeks trying to prove their identity to the satisfaction of the passport office. Weeks also without any ID, money and bank cards miles from the nearest consulate (I was in a city with a British consulate that god) after being robbed.

I still missed my flight, had to book an extra night and miss a day of work.

I really do believe some of these horror stories and why people might have such problems, even though I obviously am a 'fully approved' Brit. I do think that suggesting its an alternative reality almost questions the legitimacy of what people say and their experiences as some how being false or exaggerated. I certainly do not doubt them for a second, even with my very smooth ride through the system. It was easy to see where it could very easily be very different and how it could easily descend into being a total nightmare.

The problems my friend and her husband have had are eye opening.

Its also interesting in the way they have double checked DS is definitely my child at immigration in the UK. They were clearly looking out for child smuggling. I do wonder how much more they would have checked him if he looked slightly different or had a different name.

The system is set up for a particular group of individuals. If you fall into this category you would find it easy. It was made for you.

If you want to ask why some minority groups don't integrate more, then you also have to ask the question about are they supported in this integration and does the system make it easy for them to do so and is it encouraged by bureaucracy?

The answer is definitely no.

You know all this stuff about bureaucracy?
When I arrived in the uk, this is the thing that I loved about the uk. I found it easy, not bureaucratic at all. Any forms were always coming with very clear notes that made them easy to fill in.
And I was taking back to France, thinking that really they could do with taking some lessons there.

But the system is now used for a different purpose. The PRC being a very clear example of that (and it doesn't even say all the things you need, e.g. That if your u are self employed you are considered as 'working' only if yu ear above a certain amount. Otherwise it is considered as a hobby.... Then you wonder why people are surprised and angry when their PRC is refused. They won't be able to give the right information. Same clearly applies for other areas)

I don't understand what Starmer is playing at.

According to the BBC Labour wants the "exact same benefits" the UK has from the single market, but also a "fair management of migration".

How is that going to work?

He then goes on to say
"If our tests are not met then we do not intend to support the deal the government comes back with."

Given that the Governemnt may not give Parliament a vote on the final deal and even if they did, they wouldn't need Labour votes, who cares if they support the deal?

Labour don't know their arse from their elbow at the moment.

Corbyn seems to think making a stand, about 20 steps behind the action, makes him look competent.

He is a complete fuckwit and is going to be as guilty as TM of the disaster we are heading for.

Similarly to GreenPeppers I do not personally find English bureaucracy daunting. I do all the house admin, tax returns, passport applications in our household.
But some people do, howabout.

My Schengen passport was much more demanding. Staff at the embassy had a good laugh at me saying you haven't filled out any Hungarian Kafkaesqe forms lately.

Pretty my DC don't share my surname and fortunately they all take after their French GM in the looks department. Airport security do double check but try as I might I never seem to successfully disown them.

I didn't mean to imply disbelief at bureaucracy, but more that it is pretty indiscriminate and not necessarily related to any particular bias against any particular sort of person. London has to be the worst City in the World if you happen to need a toilet in a rush with a toddler and have a lack of change - all public toilets jealously guarded by the scariest rudest people on Earth and you have to pay even just to accompany the desperate miscreant.

I think elena it's also because I haven't had to deal with the situations where things aren't clear cut.
So passport for the dcs were easy, DH is British, has a passport. Nonissue.
Tax return is easy (even easier with an accountant lol) etc

But the system in France that was oh ever so complicated, has got much much better when they started to introduce more and more ways to do all that paperwork online. Which means that what was a pain 20 years ago when I left (but wasnt here because it was already online etc) is now just as easy, if not easier.

RTB comment made me think about something. It's the fact that a lout of data has been collected in lots of different means. Religion, ethnicity, citizenship etc etc. I remember filling the census just so see that they actually asked for my name and email address at the end of it 'just in case we need to ask you something else'
I was shocked by that. In France, census is ALWAYS anonymous (doesn't have anything to do with ethnicity following the WW2). The questions are so varied and go into so much details about personal stuff. Having ll that information attached to yur name has always made me uneasy.
What if that information was used later on in 'the wrong way'??

Ds takes after his father (olive skinned, black eyed shipwrecked Spaniard), whose surname he has. I'm a blue-eyed, blonde except when I'm dying my hair red with a German surname and a British passport but have never had any problems when travelling with ds on my own

....missed out the word Scot when describing dh!

So after wondering if it was ok to describe the terrorist in London 'British born' it looks like he wasn't a terrorist after all

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/25/westminster-attack-khalid-masoon-acted-alone

Maybe the first thing we need to do is to have a press that doesn't jump to conclusion, talk about things wo knowing whether they are right or not.
Because now, what will be remembered is that there had been a terrorist attack in London last week not that someone lost the plot for one reason or the other

prettybird

I got my passport renewal form from the Irish Consulate recently. There is no online filing option - I can hand it in in person or post it to the Consulate along with the required information, which includes my long form BC, my old passport, my marriage certificate to prove my change of name, a money order or cashier's cheque, photos, all documents signed by a notary public.

Two of my DDs got Irish passports for themselves when they were doing a semester abroad through their US universities. They are entitled to them as I am an Irish citizen, born in Ireland. One applied in 2010 and had her passport posted to her in six weeks. The other applied in August 2015 and hers took six months. The difference was due to the Irish Passport Office being overwhelmed by applications from the UK and NI.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
This is quite a befuddling read.

According to the Telegraph, the Westminster Government is going to put extra effort into consulting and involving Scotland, having been caught off-guard by Nicola's announcement It only took 9 months for them to realise that....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/25/exclusive-saving-union-scottish-independence-put-heart-brexit/amp/

On the stance Starmer has given. This is straight from Tony Blair last week

'He (Blair) told BBC1’s The Andrew Marr Show:

“A few weeks ago in the House of Commons (Brexit Secretary) David Davis said they were going to deliver a deal with exactly the same benefits we now have from the single market and the customs union. We should hold them to that.

“If they are going to try and deliver exactly the same benefits as we have now in the single market and customs union, this is an endeavour of unparalleled complexity.

“When the only thing people can point to is, you are going to control a section of this EU immigration as the reason why we want to do this, I think it is possible - I don’t put it higher than that - that people start to think, is this really the thing that is going to be important.

“What the Labour Party should say is, ‘We believed in Remain, we still think the best thing is for Britain to be part of the European Union, we acknowledge the people voted against that, we acknowledge therefore the Government have a mandate to negotiate Brexit, but we are going to hold them to the test that they have set, and if they do not pass that test then we are going to retain the right to represent the people of this country should their will change, to offer them the option of staying’.” '

In short, Davis has stated he would get as good a deal. The Labour party are leaderless and and an ex leader has now given them a clue on how to go about their business.

Probably posted a bit more than I needed to..

Cailleach1 That is interesting.

Thanks Cailleach, very interesting...

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/27/parts-of-uk-that-voted-for-brexit-may-be-hardest-hit-study-finds?CMP=share_btn_tw
Parts of UK that voted for Brexit may be hardest hit, study finds

Well who would have thought....

Boundary changes:
Boundary Commission‏*@BCE2018*

There’s still time to see what others said on plans to change constituency boundaries. Have your say by 27 March
www.bce2018.org.uk/

Deadline is today.

love the fact guardian now have a dedicated Brexit Policy Editor