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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
boredofbrexit · 25/02/2017 12:47

think thats the first time ive ever agreed with a woman postSmile

woman12345 · 25/02/2017 12:54

Yikes

Dapplegrey1 · 25/02/2017 13:09

Woman - re Soviet Russia, I think I'm right in saying that there were famines in the 1930s and immediately after the Second World War. However, as you say the Soviet Union was greatly admired by many on the left in the West.
George Bernard Shaw and Beatrice and Sidney Webb were supporters of Stalin and came back from a trip to Russia full of praise for what they saw. Of course what they saw was carefully orchestrated and they swallowed it hook line and sinker.
East Germany is an interesting case in point. In 1990 the East Germans voted for reunification and several years later some of them missed the security of wraparound state care. Life in the GDR may not have been very exciting, but it was secure...........provided you stuck to the rules.

SemiPermanent · 25/02/2017 13:10

Yikes

Be afraid Woman.
Be very afraid.........

ShockGrin

BigChocFrenzy · 25/02/2017 13:58

"Copeland shows Corbyn must go. But only Labour’s left can remove him"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/25/copeland-corbyn-go-labour-left-remove-him

"Change will arrive when enough people inside the Labour left, Momentum, or those trade unions that endorsed him twice, conclude either that the experiment has failed or that ambivalence and passivity in the face of Brexit are no longer bearable."

"perhaps the most deluded response was that of the leader himself, who decreed that the Copeland result was a protest against the “political establishment”.
Maybe I’m out of touch, but in my day revolutionaries found a more obvious way to shake the system than voting for a sitting Conservative government." Grin

"Perhaps, in other circumstances, it would have been fine for Labour to take 15 years off, let the Tories get on with governing while the party reformed itself into a new, radical social movement.
But the country doesn’t have that luxury or that time.
It needs an opposition and it needs it now." ^ YY

BigChocFrenzy · 25/02/2017 14:01

And one of Corbyn's many serious failings:
"Corbyn would relish yet another leadership contest: more rallies, more selfies, and a return to the comfort zone of attacking “Blairites” rather than Tories"

lalalonglegs · 25/02/2017 14:23

Going back to Paul Nuttall's hazy grasp of the truth, this is an interesting piece: the first few pars are about an essay he wrote as an undergraduate which verged on holocaust denying. His tutor is interviewed and says that he thought that Nuttall was "testing the boundaries of free speech" in quite a sinister way but, when pulled up on citing David Irving as a source, Nuttall - in a now familiar way - blamed someone else (his then-girlfriend) for researching the citations for him. It seems to have been his MO for at least two decades.

lalalonglegs · 25/02/2017 14:29

John Harris has also written this piece about Stoke which, in my opinion, it would have been better to run before the election but it's still a good read.

boredofbrexit · 25/02/2017 14:30

He's really not important, Nuttall.

Ukip had to put someone up, in 'Brexit central', it would have looked odd otherwise. They do not have anyone of substance.

Nigel and Banks have moved on I am sure.

howabout · 25/02/2017 14:40

Full house woman. Smile

woman12345 · 25/02/2017 15:01

Greetings to my Comrades from the other side.Grin Our historic truce may be short lived, although I offer a quiche of peace to you in recognition of our shared views.

I bring great news from our noble leader David Davis. In a personal (yes,via my local tory MP) letter from the Department for Exiting the European Union. My main concerns I addressed in my initial letter were NI security and the economy blowing up, some top extracts from letter are:

"We had a common travel area between the UK and Ireland before either country was a member of the EU. It was first agreed in 1923 and reflects the historical, social, political and economic ties between its members."

Yeah, because the 1920s were a noticeably harmonious time in English/ Irish relations, what with the Black and Tans doing neighbourhood watch and all.

"Regarding Ms ..........'s concerns on economic security, the UK economy is fundamentally strong." Goes on to list banking resilience measures (not economic indicators including those started by tragic hero Gordon Brown). and concludes with this cracker:

"The opportunity ahead is to use this moment to build a truly Global Britain. A country that reaches out to old friends and new allies as a great, global trading nation."

It's not a letter it's an insult.
Must be the same intern who wrote the white paper.
They're having a fucking larf.

woman12345 · 25/02/2017 15:09

including those started by tragic hero Gordon Brown
I mean the letter had absolutely no facts, details, proposals on how the economy would withstand, loss of EU students, businesses moving out, tariff agreements, etc
And the banking shit storm in 2008 was averted diverted and mitigated by poor old Gordon, although obviously kicked down the road rather than letting poor souls, lose their dose in bank crash.

woman12345 · 25/02/2017 15:31

Lords have nothing to lose, maybe not such a good choice of enemy:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/25/theresa-may-facing-double-defeat-brexit-bill-lords-debate-amendments/

howabout · 25/02/2017 15:39

All sounds perfectly reasonable to me woman. Grin

I am also a Gordon fan and credit him with sneaking some decent Labour policies past Blair and keeping us out the Euro as well as rescuing the banks and the G20 meeting which led to the initial international fiscal stimulus package which got scuppered by the Con/Lib alliance and the timidity of the EU. Not sure if he is speaking at the Scottish Labour Conference? If the right of the Lab Party had stood full square behind GB then all of the austerity mess could have been avoided.

Shout out to Bigchoc. I was trying to work out if Grayling's mutterings on diesel cars were to do with rebalancing imports and found this. Turns out it was the British army who got the German VW factory up and running post war and opened up the UK market to them before handing over to Germany in 1949.

www.factsmag.com/history-of-volkswagen/

Not sure how that would have gone with Juncker in charge.

woman12345 · 25/02/2017 15:51

lose their dosh that should have read.

Did you see Brown's speeches against independence and Pro Remain. Brilliant work. Jeremy Clarke's racist and disablist attacks did for him as well as his own hubris, if you're in a winning army, you have to be truthful with yourself about your own abilities.

Global Britain, sounds good if there's anyone in the globe who would trade with a racist nation, in thrall to a president who is now banning media from his press briefings.

Relying on goodwill from a nation on whom your own has shat for 300 years doesn't seem like a strategy for success.

SemiPermanent · 25/02/2017 16:08

Gordon Brown was a victim of the circumstances of the time - I did feel a bit sorry for him tbh.

He suffered the beginnings of the backlash against the spin & blatant lies of his predecessor, as well as having the misfortune of dealing with the economic crash.

Typhoid Tony & his cronies unfortunately tainted Mr Broon's credibility amongst the electorate just as they did for the Labour Party in general.

woman12345 · 25/02/2017 16:11

Quiche of peace didn't last long! Grin

SemiPermanent · 25/02/2017 16:18

No!
the quiche of peace lives on!!!

boredofbrexit · 25/02/2017 16:23

I was also a Gordon fan until he spoke against scottish independence.

Although seeing now how SNP turned out it was probably not a bad thing.

I'd still like an independent scotland if they regarded rUK as a friend rather than an enemy, and I'd prefer if it was under Scottish Labour rather than SNP.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 25/02/2017 16:26

Gordon fan here as well

Seemed to be a proper conviction politician

comfortandjoyce · 25/02/2017 16:30

woman12345

a racist nation

The level of contempt some people have for their own country never ceases to amaze me. And then they're completely confused as to why their side of politics is losing national elections, referendums, and by-elections like there's no tomorrow.

woman12345 · 25/02/2017 17:14

Yes, comfort if the truth's tough to take, blame the racist government's policies. A racist nation is how it's regarded now. Still it's a plus for trading with other racist nations. Grin

woman12345 · 25/02/2017 17:22

Whoops, did Sadiq accidentally speak truth to power?

The London mayor amended a controversial speech to Scottish Labour’s spring conference asserting there “was no difference” between those who wanted to divide Scottish and English people and the divisions sought by racist or religious bigots.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/25/sadiq-khan-tones-down-attack-on-scottish-nationalism

howabout · 25/02/2017 17:57

I was proposing Douglas Alexander as a returner to the fray in pref to TB, DM and co earlier on. Good to see him on my side of the issue on this. Also a big Sadiq fan and fully confident in his ability to bring London and Europe together as the new relationship emerges.

ElenaGreco123 · 25/02/2017 18:15

I really enjoy when we as in leavers and remainers find something to agree on.

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