Westministenders: Boris and God Knows what next. (I'm all out of ideas!)

[RedToothBrush]

Still a week until Stoke and Copeland. (Labour Hold/Con Gain unless something strange happens) QT is from Stoke next week.

A50 hits the Lords next week. Melania is being lined up to do something for the women. (God help us all).

Will UKIP survive? Will Nuttall survive? Will Labour survive? Will Trump survive? Will CNN survive? Will the Lords survive? Will Theresa May survive a class room of children?

All these questions and more

However it does illustrate the naivety of people who voted for Brexit thinking that it would bring about fairness in immigration policy when in fact it was quite clear it was going to extend the unfairness to all.

Nobody did this though, did they? Nobody thought, "I'm really concerned that North Africans aren't getting a fair crack at a chance of emigrating to the UK and for that reason I'm going to vote for Brexit". It's just a rhetorical turnaround that some of the Leavers pull so they can play the "No, you're the racist one"-card.

New Thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2861423-Westministenders-Tell-Boris-it-should-be-more-Stokenders-and-Copenders?watched=1

mother there was a thread about Scottish tertiary education over the summer. The stats in the New Statesman article do not stand up to analysis because of the difficulties in comparing the different routes into higher education in Scotland and England and the definitions of "elite" universities. The press actually published apologies to that effect.

I would agree with the point on maintenance grants were it not for the fact that they have been abolished for all in England with very little opposition. One positive of Brexit is that it would be possible to reallocate free places to Scottish rather than EU students.

On primary and secondary education I can only speak from personal experience and while I do see issues that need to be addressed and are being addressed I think it is very difficult to make comparisons with England where most children do not attend their local school from 5-18 as they do in Scotland. Having seen some of the local data on which recent primary stats are based I would say there is a good deal of spurious reporting since Scotland does not have sats. I also suspect earlier school attendance age and early years hot housing flatters the English 5 year old figures.

On the health service, again I agree there is room for improvement but performance is better than rUK.

I think a few might have - Giles Fraser for example - but it's certainly a niche position.

An NZ friend who voted leave, on the other hand, gave one of her reasons for leaving as wanting EU citizens to go through all the crap she had to go through when she settled here.

In a post Brexit World there is the prospect that the Government will be able to create a non-discriminatory policy rather than favouring EU spouses as is currently the case.

Who or what is stopping them from doing so now?

May's special terms for different sectors unlikely to happen, says Ivan Rogers. Guardian

A “hardball” EU will seek to avoid a future trade deal with special terms for different sectors of the economy as wanted by Theresa May, says Britain’s former ambassador to the bloc, warning that Brexit talks could get “gory, bitter and twisted”...

He said the EU had a strong incentive to reach a trade agreement, but its “legalistic” nature meant that if the prime minister stood by her “no deal is better than a bad deal” stance, the UK would be in a legal no-man’s land.

“They will say you have transformed yourselves overnight from being a member of this body to a third country outside the body, and in the absence of a new legal agreement everything falls away,” he said.

“They will say: the day after exit is radically different from the day before. You are now a third country and we don’t have to give you anything … And unless you have a preferential trade agreement, you can’t trade on preferential terms.”

howabout - on Scottish education (I hope not too much of a derail as it's the end of the thread and people will be migrating to the new one), a complaint I've seen more than once on MN is that the CfE discriminates against state-educated children as many will only be able to take ~7 subjects at 16yo and those at private school often do upwards of 9 and so have a better stab at the more prestigious universities and so on. I wondered if there was any truth in this - I'm completely neutral on the subject, I just wondered .

Nobody did this though, did they? Nobody thought, "I'm really concerned that North Africans aren't getting a fair crack at a chance of emigrating to the UK and for that reason I'm going to vote for Brexit".

To be fair, one Leaver, Corcory, has consistently argued in that vein, and I am 100% sure that those opinions are sincerely held.

Hmm, I also have a Kiwi friend who said she was going to vote Leave for similar reasons, Kaija. Mind you, I also have a NHS doctor friend who voted Leave because she wants to see the NHS contract - she feels we have become too reliant on it and people don't respect it enough ...

I also have a NHS doctor friend who voted Leave because she wants to see the NHS contract - she feels we have become too reliant on it and people don't respect it enough

I could understand that POV (not that it would have convinced me that voting Leave was the remedy ...)

Peregrina the non-EU immigration point is one Gisela Stewart has made.

No there is no truth in this. If anything posher schools tend to do fewer Nat 5 (GCSE equivalent qualifications) so that they can assure good results for the 5 taken forward to highers. Scottish students also have the luxury of picking up extra subjects in 6th year. It is quite probable that my DD at the local comp (officially deprived as about to benefit greatly from new funding to close the attainment gap) will end up with 3 advanced highers (slightly more UCAS points than A levels) and at least 2 extra highers.

Thanks, howabout, that's interesting (and well done to your daughter).

Peregrina the non-EU immigration point is one Gisela Stewart has made.

One of Westminsters less bright specimens (and my MP to boot). I've had several replies from her on headed notepaper saying "fuck off loser".

Now, you can listen to what she has to say, and discount it as claptrap. Or you ave yourself the time and discount it as claptrap without listening ...

How is free childcare authoritarian?
Ten years ago my single parent friend stayed at home supported by benefits and completing her OU degree while her child was at primary school. Now she would benefit from almost free childcare under UC but be forced into low paid school hours friendly work. The overall level of state support she received would probably be marginally more now but she wouldn't benefit from it as it would be being paid to the low paid childcare provider who is probably also being paid to look after someone else's child but not her own.

At least you are getting replies from your MP. Mine has gone to sleep on the job. She will wake up just before the election and come soliciting votes.

Nobody did this though, did they? Nobody thought, "I'm really concerned that North Africans aren't getting a fair crack at a chance of emigrating to the UK and for that reason I'm going to vote for Brexit"
I do know a couple of people who very genuinely voted for this, but are now of the belief that it won't happen - extended unfairness along with more preferential immigration coming from elsewhere. Nice pipe dream though.

That was the magic thing about the leave vote, Lala. In the unknowingness of the consequences, pretty much any crazy thought you'd been harbouring over the years finally got the opportunity for a punt - grow the NHS, shrink the NHS, more immigration, less immigration, more globalism, less globalism etc etc.

How is free childcare authoritarian?

If it's achieved by using the mechanism of the state, and enacted regardless of some peoples wishes, it starts to look a tad overbearing at least.

Peregrina - I think we share an MP... by chance my mother (who also lives in constituency) was having dinner with the chair of the Conservative Association and mentioned that the MP hadn't been replying to constituents letters. Apparently there was a look of horror and a promise to take it up, so you never know, you may get a reply at some point!

Just lol at free childcare being authoritarian. Cannot even begin to comment.

"If it's achieved by using the mechanism of the state, and enacted regardless of some peoples wishes, it starts to look a tad overbearing at least."

How does this differ from any other public service?

The people who thought leaving was going to make it easier for non-EEA immigrants were and still are completely in cloud cuckoo land. That isn't the way the wind is blowing at all, and that's something that has been incredibly obvious for a long time.

The argument also totally fails to consider the fact that one of the easiest ways for a non-EEA person to immigrate to the UK is as the family member of an EEA migrant. There are tens of thousands of such people in the UK. If I'm being charitable, it's a very naive and poorly informed position. If not, it's a cynical pretence at defending their indefensible position. Gisela Stuart, in particular, is a solid gold fuckwit on this point.