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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris and God Knows what next. (I'm all out of ideas!)

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2017 23:56

Still a week until Stoke and Copeland. (Labour Hold/Con Gain unless something strange happens) QT is from Stoke next week.

A50 hits the Lords next week. Melania is being lined up to do something for the women. (God help us all).

Will UKIP survive? Will Nuttall survive? Will Labour survive? Will Trump survive? Will CNN survive? Will the Lords survive? Will Theresa May survive a class room of children?

All these questions and more

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Thread gallery
23
boredofbrexit · 22/02/2017 11:07

Kaija, perhaps widen your reading to include Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg, but if that's not possible, wiki is your friend.

And as a balance, this post by Paddy Briggs is helpful:

Westministenders: Boris and God Knows what next. (I'm all out of ideas!)
RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 11:14

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2017/feb/22/they-dont-care-about-us-the-anger-and-apathy-behind-the-stoke-byelection-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

Wonderful video blog from the Guardian on the reality of the Stoke By-Election.

The lad on the estate is what Stoke is about. He does not seem stupid by any stretch of the imagination.

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HashiAsLarry · 22/02/2017 11:16

What would be an example of fascism of the left?
Hard Lexiters

LurkingHusband · 22/02/2017 11:18

What would be an example of fascism of the left?

It may not be approved by a political scientist, but my concept of fascism and communism is they both promote the benefit of the state over that of the individual. They both need to create, promote, (and eventually own) the notion of "the Fatherland", or "Mother Russia" or "Blighty". In that respect, they are indistinguishable.

It makes it so much easier if you use phrases like "all in this together". It also becomes embarrassingly easy when you can create a bogeyman to scare the naive children with ... international Jews, international terrorists, muslamic terrorists, paedophiles, refugees, muslamic refugees, muslamic paedophile terrorist refugees, eastern europeans, western europeans, the list - luckily for the tyrant - is literally endless.

A really savvy dictatorship does not remove the rights of the citizen. It uses it's position of strength to persuade the population to queue up to give them up. Hence the rather thick people who are happy to lose what little human rights they do have, just to get one over on Johnny Foreigner.

Kaija · 22/02/2017 11:19

Just an example would be good, bored, but thanks for the suggestions.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 11:21

SWP

boredofbrexit · 22/02/2017 11:24

Kaija...Did you not read as far as 'mao' Or even 'stalin'? That was only a few lines in.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 11:27

What would be an example of fascism of the left
SWP;
national socialist party(Nazis);
HGWells fellow traveller with Ezra Pound and the cool fascists of the 1920s, and coiner of the phrase 'fascism of the left';
People who believe anti semitic and partial histories.

boredofbrexit · 22/02/2017 11:28

In fact Kaija, if history bores you, I'd proffer the identity politics of Obama. I'm getting off the train now but am happy to expand later.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 11:36

To distract attention from the rise of fascism across the West, some on the hard right wish to confuse the terms "evil dictatorship" with the term "fascist"

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot were all evil dictators who committed mass murder
They were communists, not fascists.

Medieval monarchs were sometimes mass-murders & dictators, but not fascists

Hitler was a Nazi, a subgroup of fascist dictators, who committed genocide against a specific race
Franco was a fascist dictator, but killed very few indeed
His version of fascism was very much of the right
Le Pen is a fascist, but the Front National has very leftwing socialist policies except for the immigration issue

It's like saying every horrible disease must be called cancer.
Well sometimes it's T2 or heart disease instead

Kaija · 22/02/2017 11:42

Bored, I assumed you were talking about contemporary fascism on the left - I am aware of Mao and Stalin, but wonder who you are thinking of as their equivalents here and now.

Agree of course that totalitarianism and nationalism look very similar whether approached from the left or the right.

Kaija · 22/02/2017 11:44

Sorry, missed your last post, bored. Yes I would like to hear more about the identity politics of Obama.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 11:46

Until the USSR collapsed, communism was a far more immediate danger than fascism
Now communism is dead in Europe and fascism is rising - some people like authoritarianism of any sort, hence the popularity of evil leaders.

However communism could rise again in Russia - they did a 180 degree turn from communism to fascism.
So they could do the reverse when Putin finally goes, especially if one of his ex-KGB mates murders him and there is a chaotic change of power.
Something to think about for all those rightwingers cheering on Putin and Russia - that would be a grave threat again to the UK and USA, not just Russia's neighbours.

NinonDeLanclos · 22/02/2017 11:52

One authoritarian/totalian regime looks much like another. But the political and economic philosophies underpinning left and right authoritarianism are very different. To claim parity overlooks the intricate details of their unique ideological origins.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 11:53

Yes, the "horseshoe" analysis, Kaija That the extremes of left and right bend towards each other and can become very similar.

Where far left & far right find common cause, as at present, it is imo because a shared liking for authoritarianism

Obama's weakness is that he was, well rather weak - he tried to be conciliatory to a far right GOP that wouldn't move an inch towards him, that in particular hated the first black US president.
In his first term, he compromised on issues where he shouldn't, maybe due to inexperience at that level of politics.

However, his popularity after leaving office is vastly higher than Trump's.

LurkingHusband · 22/02/2017 11:56

Anyone seen this

The British peer who devised Article 50 - the formal procedure for leaving the EU - has warned Brexit risks hurting the poor while protecting the rich “Bullingdon boys”.

Lord Kerr said the country was still “in the dark” about what Theresa May’s plan for Britain outside the EU was.

“It is a fact that if we leave the European Union, our economic relationship with it will be less advantageous than it is now—that has to be a fact,” he told the House of Lords last night.

Lord Kerr said it was clear the prime minister had “decided to put our autarchic sovereignty ahead of economic well-being.

(contd)

Kaija · 22/02/2017 12:03

Interesting thought about a post-Putin Russia, bigchoc

SemiPermanent · 22/02/2017 12:07

RTB, that guardian vid was a good representation of so many forgotten places across the country.

The apathy is where the true fight is, and (regardless of whether JC is the right leader or not - I think not, personally), the general direction of his ideas & policies are essentially good.

The fact that the estate had been left off the lists for the activists says it all really - they're even forgotten and ignored in the fight for votes.

Kaija · 22/02/2017 12:09

Speaking of Russia, this is weird:

uk.businessinsider.com/possible-russian-interference-in-the-stoke-by-election-2017-2

Russia sends the astroturfers to help out with the Stoke election...

...for Labour.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 12:17

Kaija If Russia reverts to communism, they would probably retain their leverage, the politicians, sympathisers & agents of influence they have now.
After all, much of the hard left still supports the current far right Russia and Putin, e.g. Seamus Milne & co

In fact switching back & forth probably helps expand their influence - once politicians, business and military leaders have helped them, they are committed and trapped, so belong to Russia for ever.

NinonDeLanclos · 22/02/2017 12:18

Yes, the "horseshoe" analysis, Kaija That the extremes of left and right bend towards each other and can become very similar.

Which I don't personally agree with because it over-simplifies political ideologies.

What it comes down to is that some people have a taste for authoritarian government, and they use whatever political system is in place at the time to get it: whether left or right of the democratic spectrum, or a monarchy, or a republic like Rome.

LurkingHusband · 22/02/2017 12:27

Russia reverts to communism

Was Russia ever communist ? Socialist yes. Communist ?

If people are allowed to self-identify their gender, are nations allowed to self-identify their political philosophy ? And if not, where does that leave the UK which calls itself a Liberal Democracy, but acts like anything but ??????

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 12:51

Semi, I very much agree with you on that.

That's why the video is important. I wonder what those Labour activists went back home thinking.

I don't think Corbyn is the right man and what he's doing isn't targeting the right people and groups. This business of going after the older traditional working class isn't where its at. But yes in principle he's not necessarily completely wrong. Its the right direction done in a poor way.

Equally neither are UKIP doing things that will make the difference. Their strategy is of big ideology not actually managing to do something which illustrates how change can be achieved. I fail to see how someone who has a track record of never turning up for work in Brussels - even if opposed to the idea of the EU - is going to be the best man for that job.

Everyone seems to be chasing the traditional working class vote and the lower income working groups. No one is chasing the vote of those who are out of work. They are the whipping boys. The ones for whom benefits should be removed. The ones who are portrayed as stupid and as lazy etc. But actually nothing is being offered to change the practical issues that stop people in this group from having opportunities. Instead the government is cutting back in this area and local councils are unable to do anything because they are having to remove services and infrastructure.

I was chatting to someone a couple of weeks ago, who was telling me about a scheme of social housing that had just been completed. It was great, nice new cheap houses, yet no one was taking on the houses. Why? Because that's all there was. Houses. No bus services. No shops. No services. People could not afford to live there, even though the housing was cheap because they couldn't get to jobs and couldn't afford a car or to learn to drive.

He was a university lecturer in the past, and one of his favourite things he had done was set his students a task to go to a very deprived area of the city and get them to go to the job centre, look at was on offer, what it paid and then work out how they could get to that job and how much it would cost.

His students had something of an eye opening experience to say the least.

The video of the labour activists in Stoke very much reminds me of that.

DH was alarmed a couple of weeks ago when one of his scouts made a comment about benefit scroungers. People don't tend to think things through, and its often the intelligent educated middle classes who don't join the dots up. They can just avoid certain estates and never think about it really. I do think that part of the Brexit vote is very much a backlash against that. And this is the part of the Brexit vote that the Conservatives and UKIP will definitely not solve, simply because their ideology is to focus on the working poor and demonise those who are on benefits. Or immigrants for taking jobs that the poor can not get to.

A night out in St Helens or Stoke or Hull or Luton teaches you much about life. Places that are 'no go zones' should be places that everyone should go.

Brexit can not solve the problems of these left behind. Why would they vote in Stoke tomorrow, even if they voted in the referendum? The government has made an interpretation of the leave vote which ignores why 'the left behind' voted. They do not give two shits about actually leaving the EU. That was never really the point.

Its why the media going on about how Stoke voted Leave heavily in the context of the by-election spectacularly misses the point. Brexit is way down the agenda when push comes to shove. People would rather have a whole host of other things that helped them directly instead first. Things that are possible in the EU.

Its also why future GEs can not be seen in the context of leave or remain too. In some respects Brexit is a way of distracting people from the other stuff going on which makes things worse.

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Dapplegrey1 · 22/02/2017 13:14

Lurking why do you think Russia was socialist rather than communist? I'd always presumed it was communist so you make an interesting point.

SemiPermanent · 22/02/2017 13:15

I agree with everything in your last post.
Even as a staunch leaver I can appreciate that a vote to Leave isn't going to change the lot of the forgotten in itself - but I do believe that leaving is the best option for the future direction of the country (which is where we differ, obvs).

One part of your post:
Equally neither are UKIP doing things that will make the difference. Their strategy is of big ideology not actually managing to do something which illustrates how change can be achieved.

YY to that - I thought the young labour activist nailed that quite well when she was talking to the guy at the end - he doesn't give a crap about Stoke, he's in it only for himself; unfortunately I don't think that's getting through because the very people who are desperate for change (and also likely to vote) see him as the only option for change.
Like the young guy said, Labour have had 60 odd years to 'make a difference' in stoke, and they've done fuck all - why would they start now?

Wrt the labour activist, I'm ashamed to say that as soon as she was introduced as a 'labour activist brought up from London' I immediately assumed the stereotype 'oh, here we go, a Londoner shipped in to tell the locals how to think/tell the locals what they 'should' be doing/tell the locals what the 'right' way to vote is.
She was so good though, not preachy, not 'big city, metropolitan, patronising the locals' - she was very lovely, personable & interested; actually a shame that the Labour machine are targeting people like her in the wrong areas - far more to be achieved by getting them out in the forgotten areas & estates.