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Brexit

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Westministenders: Boris and his friends hand in their homework to be marked.

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 14:10

The last week has been depressing for a lot of people.

Even if you are happy about the vote in the Commons, there is a worrying lack of backbone in MPs of all shades.

Then there’s what is going on in the USA which I’m going to quietly ignore in this post except to say that cosying up to Trump still could backfire on all who do for numerous reasons.

It seems like its all over in someways, but there is still plenty going on.

The A50 Bill has only passed stage one. The Government’s deliberate publishing of the White Paper after the vote has left a lot of people with egg all over their face.

Plus its just crap. Actually its not crap. It’s a dog dinner of farcical proportions with no content, faulty data and incorrect details that an A-Level Student did the night before their assignment was due, masquerading as an official government document.

Now its amendment time, which is the serious bit. For an amendment to make it, it will need cross party support. After the government failed to produce a White Paper worth the paper it was written on, and insulted the intelligence of the House of Commons, that could get interesting.

For starters the White Paper says that EU citizens are one of our best bargaining chips. Trouble is a lot of Tory and Labour MPs don’t agree.

In short there is a fair old chance of a government defeat next week at some point. The government don’t want any. Especially not this early. I really think it will be very difficult for the government to provide the assurance MPs will want, even if they crack the whip. They have lost the trust of too many. In voting for the first vote, many MPs will feel they have shown their intent to support leaving and now will get busy on trying to hammer down the details.

Highlights include of the White Paper include the idea that we will still be subject to the ECJ except we won’t. This is ridiculous. We will be subject to ECJ rulings but not be subject to ECJ rulings directly. Eh? What? (Not that we didn’t see this coming). There’s Euroatom and the government doing an impression of Homer Simpson. With a by-election in Copeland on the cards. That story has some time to keep running. As Steve Peers points out, the Leprechauns are going to sort out Northern Ireland for us which is a great political strategy to employ.

Its full of lots of other utter bollocks but those particular points are the ones that are potentially the most problematic for the government. If you don’t think the White Paper screams we are going to get eaten alive by the EU and Trump, you need to get off the hallucinogenics pronto.

If that isn’t awe inspiring enough we also have:

The wonderful mental image of Paul Nuttall kipping on a mattress in a house in Stoke disparately pretending to be a Stokie, nervously hoping that letterbox rattling in the wind isn’t C4 letterbox again and that the coppers don’t pay him a visit in the near future. I confess that whilst my imagination has been kept busy with this, I am disappointed in the lack of video clips of him munching on an Oatcake in a Stoke City shirt, sitting on an Armitage Shanks throne, turning his plate over whilst listening to Robbie Williams and with a Titanic by his side. All at the same time. I think he’s missed a few tricks.

AND

Diane Abbott doing quite possibly even more damage to Labour than them merely rolling over and dying over a50 by pulling a sickie. Her ‘Brexit Flu’ damages the party’s image and Corbyn himself even more. If that’s even possible. Some Labour MPs have demanded an apology.

Labour is starting to look like it’s a ship with rats fleeing this week. MPs have defied a three line whip and quite the Shadow Cabinet (Again). Rumours are that over 7000 members have left. A councillor has defected to the Lib Dems. There was a council by election in Rotherham where Lab lost a seat to the LDs in an area where there has never been as many people vote LD. Nor were there as many remain voters as LD voters. The Parliamentary vote for Unite’s new leader has unsurprisingly selected the anti-Corbyn candidate Gerald Coyne over Len McCluskey. The bookies have dropped the odds on Corbyn leaving Labour before a GE from 6/1 to 2/1 overnight. Oh and Red Ed is being rumoured to be returning to the front bench…

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RedToothBrush · 06/02/2017 10:21

Ian Dunt @IanDunt
Oh good, more attention on non-existent health tourism issue. When May was informed of minuscule cost she refused to "quantify the problem".
She also insisted the public believe "there is an issue out there", thereby foreshadowing our current 'perception is reality' nightmare.

Stephen Burns @stephenroyburns
@IanDunt In the same way it 'felt like' we had lost sovereignty. Farcical.

Also see alt-facts.

Quantification seems to be a sore spot doesn't it? Crowd sizes. Health Tourism. Meh.

This is like where the judge responds to Trump's lawyer about the immigration ban saying that he has to rule rationally on the basis of facts and trump's lawyer tries to contend that government don't believe that.
(If you've not seen the video it's quite something)

Except there's no legal challenge on this issue and we are at the mercy of a white paper of feelings not rationality.

Same thing different shit show.

The Whole House Committee stage of the Brexit Bill starts this afternoon. I wonder if we will see much Tory filibustering in order to try and prevent as many amendments from being tabled and debated as possible. I fully expect to see the usual suspects out in force being difficult today and trying to talk reams of bollocks to undermine the national interest whilst the go on the importance of traditional debate and procedure in the HoC.

If it were a game of monopoly we'd be shouting 'cheat' very loudly. Unfortunately the rules of the HoC allow...

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whatwouldrondo · 06/02/2017 10:42

I would add that UBS actually called the Brexit vote and made corresponding investment decisions that meant it's private wealth clients did not sustain any losses as a result......

whatwouldrondo · 06/02/2017 10:51

It isn't just that health tourism is being hyped out of all perspective to the scale of the problem. It is also being hyped and actioned without reference to the culture and values of those who keep our NHS going. Doctors treat patients as human beings not based on where they come from, hence so many of them risk their lives traveling to war zones and areas of especial need . A couple of excerpts from the hypocritical oath "I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings , those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm. I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick."

It is another stick to add to all the others that are lowering the morale of the medical profession.

HashiAsLarry · 06/02/2017 11:09

Can't figure out how people copy tweets so well but this had me laughing

Kate Hoey 4/2 16:05
PM urged to demand Brexit talks are held in 'neutral' Switzerland & not ‘hostile’ Brussels
http://shr.gs/a3Rqp6d
express link

Ian Dunt 6/2 10:54
If only we could somehow use this level of stupidity as an energy source.

RedToothBrush · 06/02/2017 11:13

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034
Local voting figures shed new light on EU referendum

Ward by Ward EU Ref results for numerous areas.

Not all areas counted in this way (this was allowed by Electoral rules) and they had a 'mixed' count. I know that my area was one of these (strangely I had a conversation on this very thing this weekend over the legitimacy of the Catcliffe Rotherham result).

Nothing staggering here, but I will try and have a look at how this compares with council by-election results if I can. Looks fascinating stuff.

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whatwouldrondo · 06/02/2017 11:35

I meant of course hypocratic oath which Apple seems intent on correcting to hypocritical. They may have a point in some cases, especially in the US.... and Jeremy wants them over here....

Peregrina · 06/02/2017 11:47

Re Doctors and the Hypocratic oath, have any of you seen the film called Barbara about East Germany? It concerns two doctors who had blotted their copybooks and been banished to the sticks. One was treating the wife of a Stasi operative. He was asked, 'why are you treating the wife of that arsehole?' To receive the answer "I'm a doctor and she has cancer", and that was the end of it. As it should be.

PattyPenguin · 06/02/2017 11:59

Results of IPSOS Mori poll with responses from one fifth of FTSE 500 companies.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38878091

A snippet:
"In order for businesses to be successful post-Brexit, 86% of executives thought the most important factors were cutting the amount and complexity of regulation, and keeping it easy to recruit staff from the European Union."

So companies want less regulation (with what consequences for their suppliers, employees and customers, for society, for the environment?) and continued immigration from the EU.

I know it's only 20% of the FTSE 500, but I bet it's representative of the sector.

RedToothBrush · 06/02/2017 12:00

Sunderland Sandhill from a couple of weeks ago:

LD: 824 - 45%
Labour: 458 - 25%
UKIP: 343 - 18.7%
CON: 184 - 10%
Green: 23 - 1.3%
23.8% Turnout

Remain: 1598 - 32.56%
Leave: 3310 - 67.44%
(Roughly 63.76% turnout based on figured for the council by-election)

Fascinating to see break down like this.

It makes you wonder how different the country would be if people voted in council elections. Would it influence how they voted on a national level in time?

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boredofbrexit · 06/02/2017 12:03

Re NHS. Of course UK should stand out as a beacon of ideal perfection and infinite resources in a world where no other country offers no -questions -asked -or -payment -required treatment. I'm sorry but you go on about leavers unicorns! Everyone should be treated, but there should be enforceable reciprocal agreements with their governments that cover an agreed range of procedures. No-one is asking doctors to ask for proof of ability (for the particular government) to pay..the NHS is overburdened with admin and managerial staff who can deal with this. Or if its too delicate, maybe its a job for robots.Hmm

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 06/02/2017 12:18

Not as many spanish students coming over either, they usually come over for a month in june

Loads of my friends get them for the month, now loads of my friends arent

RedToothBrush · 06/02/2017 12:33

bored, what happens if the cost of enforcing this system is MORE than the cost of just treating people?

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RedToothBrush · 06/02/2017 12:45

Election Data ‏*@election*_data

It's clear to me from the geo-demographics that there's a higher-turnout vote which will turn against the govt if Brexit damages economy 1/2
2/2 Quite where that vote goes will depend on how well the other parties make the case, and of course their own economic competence

Latest yougov poll said only 1% of Remain voters will definitely not vote whilst 68% said they definitely would compared to 5% of Leave voters who will definitely not vote, whilst 64% said they definitely would.

That's an awful lot of people chasing the votes of people who don't vote. Who is actually motivating them to vote and be interested in voting?

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Kaija · 06/02/2017 12:46

I gathered from the Today programme this morning is that the reason this is a problem in the UK is because we are outside the Schengen area, which requires visitors to have 30,000 Euros' worth of health insurance.

So perhaps joining Schengen is the way to go. That would delight the Brexiteers.

boredofbrexit · 06/02/2017 12:50

Kaija...alternatively we could enforce our own requirements re travel insurance.

PattyPenguin · 06/02/2017 12:50

I'd better try to find my family's NHS numbers, hadn't I?

In case we need to give them at A&E (where two of them have been in the last ten days).

ElenaGreco123 · 06/02/2017 12:52

Red I might use the voting intentions statistics in my next letter to my long-suffering MP.

boredofbrexit · 06/02/2017 12:56

RTB I'd imagine it would not be ebforced in isolation but as part of a more comprehensive overhaul. There is a great amount of work needed. It could have a thread of its own.

Kaija · 06/02/2017 12:57

"That's an awful lot of people chasing the votes of people who don't vote. Who is actually motivating them to vote and be interested in voting?"

From what I understand from both Dominic Cummings' blog and what we know about Leave.EU and Cambridge Analytica, a lot of the success of both the Leave campaigns was down to the targeting of potentially Leave-leaning non-voters and getting them out to vote.

So if they are less inclined to vote generally, the question then would be whether they will be targeted again for future elections. Either way, Labour would surely do better to start catching up on how to reach people in a social media/big data world than to keep aping UKIP's policies.

RedToothBrush · 06/02/2017 12:58

www.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/us/politics/trump-white-house-aides-strategy.html?_r=2
Trump and Staff Rethink Tactics After Stumbles

This is the article about Trump not knowing what's in the EO.

It looks like there is a power battle going on between Priebus and Bannon.

Trump thought the presidency was genuinely going well, and its not been until the past few days that opinion is changing.

Priebus has put extra checks in, to vet EO as they initially were not shown to the right agencies etc and Trump will be involved in the drafting of EO much earlier.

Bannon and his sidekick Miller look like they think/thought they had a window of opportunity to push through any old shit (which they clearly took advantage of)

It seems like a reasonable assessment. Worth a read.

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Kaija · 06/02/2017 12:59

Does anyone know what proportion of the overall NHS budget is represented by "health tourism"?

TuckersBadLuck · 06/02/2017 13:04

For 2015/16, the overall NHS budget was around £116.4 billion.

They're talking about savings of £500m from cracking down on 'health tourism' aren't they?

HashiAsLarry · 06/02/2017 13:07

kaija TM refused to give actual figures. NHS heads claim its minuscule.
More of an issue with the NHS' inefficiency at claiming back what's owed from the EU countries though. But hey, why not blame health tourists.
www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-health-tourism-cost-nhs-billions

boredofbrexit · 06/02/2017 13:11

Depends how Health tourism is defined though. And perhaps the intention is going forward, when we are no longer part of the EU if no reciprocal rights can be agreed?

HashiAsLarry · 06/02/2017 13:11

Going by the maximum estimate of £280m for deliberate health tourism, it equates to around 0.25% of the overall NHS budget.

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