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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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BlueEyeshadow · 26/01/2017 17:34

Sheesh. Twitter is reporting that Clive Lewis is going to vote for A50 after all.

So all the vague hope that the supreme court judgement might lead to this being done intelligently is utterly snuffed out.

woman12345 · 26/01/2017 17:36

BlueEyeshadow that's bad.

The 3 Million
1 hr ·
The Government's Brexit bill was missing a point. Or rather 3 million points. So we added our own amendment in point 2 to bring decency back into the bill.
Share widely as the lives of EU citizens mustn't be up for negotiations. We are not bargaining chips, we are people!
"2 Exclusion
The rights of residence of EU citizens living in the UK will not be affected and her majesty’s Government will unilaterally grant EU citizens living in the UK the right to remain after the withdrawal from the EU"

On Monday 20 February, we are asking EU and UK citizens to join our mass lobby and ask their MP to guarantee our rights in law before article 50 is triggered. Register for the mass lobby at

www.the3million.org.uk/masslobby to stand up for our rights.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 17:38

< hides woman in fallout shelter >

red When a Vice-President takes over from a President who has resigned or died, legally they can bring all their own staff and sack all of their predecessor's staff.
It's a new administration, as if the Veep had been directly elected.

e.g. Johnson sacking the late JFk's brother as Attorney General - Johnson also brought in the "nepotism law" that's supposed to prevent Jared Kushner being appointed to any important post < we'll wait on that >

Gerald Ford chose to keep almost all Nixon's team, but they were capable pros - Nixon's plumbers were long gone.

The GOP in Congress mostly regard Trump as a cuckoo in their nest.
So, it shouldn't be politicially difficult to remove Bannon & the batshit Breitbart gang, just replace with ordinary Republicans who are competent and don't want to blow up the world.

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 17:39

CNN ‏*@CNN*
JUST IN: Pres. Trump to sign executive order today, moving forward with voter fraud investigation.

What needs to be true to justify what happens next.

Evan O'Connell ‏*@evanoconnell*
White House @PressSec @seanspicer just posted - and deleted - this. I'm guessing it's his password.

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
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woman12345 · 26/01/2017 17:40

Grin bigchoc

MitzyLeFrouf · 26/01/2017 17:41

Good for the Mexican president for dissing Donald. As a shallow aside, I hadn't realised how easy on the eye he is.

TheSmurfsAreHere · 26/01/2017 17:44

Can someone explains me what on earth in the reasoning from Trump with his election investigation??

He has been elected so what is he trying to prove? That election did have a lot of fraud as he said during the elections? That actually he does have the majority of the votes? Or is he hoping that it will show actually it's Clinton that should be president? Wink

woman12345 · 26/01/2017 17:44

That's one a billion reasons why I am missing Barack. DT actually hurts to look at. Mitzy
Is TM on drugs?

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 17:45

Labour's proposed amendments to bill.

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
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MitzyLeFrouf · 26/01/2017 17:46

'President Donald Trump to publish weekly list of crimes committed by immigrants'

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-publish-weekly-list-crimes-immigrants-commit-refugees-aliens-executive-order-us-a7546826.html?cmpid=facebook-post

Peregrina · 26/01/2017 17:46

Theresa May condemns torture and says guidance that prevents UK sharing intell with those who use it won't change - big implications

Mrs May is good on talk. She usually does the opposite. So no real implications.

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 17:47

Can someone explains me what on earth in the reasoning from Trump with his election investigation??

So a 'report' can be written by Steve Bannon and it can be used to disenfranchise 'unwanted' voters who are more likely to vote Democratic.

See Jim Crow Laws.

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BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 17:48

woman Polticially, I'd change 2) to

"Providing the EU reciprocates for UK citizens legally resident in EU countries,
the rights of residence of EU citizens living in the UK will not be affected and her majesty’s Government will unilaterally grant EU citizens living in the UK the right to remain after the withdrawal from the EU"

and to avoid 100,000s of UK pensioners having to return from Spain etc (and requiring more NHS resources):

"HMG will continue the EU-wide agreement to repay health service costs for legally EU-resident UK citizens in receipt of UK state pensions, provided the EU continues to reciprocate by repaying the nhs for all costs of its citizens receiving their state pension in the UK"

(the custom that the NHS often doesn't bother asking for repayment should be corrected)

lalalonglegs · 26/01/2017 17:51

Jared Kushner has already been cleared to work for Trump, BigChoc. No, I don't understand why it doesn't fall foul of the nepotism laws either.

abcnews.go.com/Politics/nepotism-laws-apply-jared-kushner-appointment-doj/story?id=44951811

BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 17:52

So it isn't unilateral and politically doesn't look like giving up those human negotiating "chips" Hmm without something equal in return.

extrabiotin · 26/01/2017 17:52

Maybe the first domino to fall?

Barclays Bank moving EU headquarters to Dublin. Note it is the EU arm only.

Others may follow suit. To Frankfurt, Paris, Dublin, etc.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-26/barclays-said-to-pick-dublin-as-eu-headquarters-after-brexit

MitzyLeFrouf · 26/01/2017 17:52

May’s giggly and coy act really makes me want to vomit and vomit.

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
woman12345 · 26/01/2017 17:54

The 3 million is just about EU citizens in Britain. bigchoc Part of the trouble with the opposition is the partisan nature of the groups opposed to Remain.

Why there just needs to be a remain party.

'Selma' film is good on Jim Crow laws and elections.
Tragic that books like To Kill a Mockingbird aren't history now. ( why he won, they never were)

MitzyLeFrouf · 26/01/2017 17:54

Jared Kushner's appointment being able to bypass the nepotism laws is so very corrupt. And yet unsurprising.

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 18:01

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-donald-trump-nhs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html
Theresa May suggests NHS could be part of US trade deal

She doesn't (headline is misleading) but she's certainly not saying it won't be.

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RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 18:05

Jim Sciutto ‏*@jimsciutto* (CNN)
Breaking: Four top @StateDept Mgmt officials all fired by Trump admin, part of effort to "clean house" - officials tell @eliselabottcnn

PURGE

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BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 18:05

lala I'd missed that Kushner was formally appointed, but I'm hoping that nepotism - e.g. family business interest - form some of the counts for Trump's impeachment.

Voting Fraud ?

Even the GOP mainstream aren't keen on this probe

“I’ve seen no evidence to that effect,” Speaker Paul Ryan, “I’ve made that very, very clear.”
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), who ran against Trump in the 2016 GOP primary, advised the president “to knock this off.”
“This is going to erode his ability to govern this country if he does not stop it,” he told CNN.

thehill.com/homenews/administration/316213-trump-stirs-fear-with-voter-fraud-probe

Democrats are cooperating promptly with the proble, because they expect to prove the claim is rubbish < but beware fake news >

“Donald Trump is lying to the American people about undocumented people voting because he wants to set the stage for
more voter suppression,”
Rep. Keith Ellison (running for next DNC chair)

“Expect Trump and his henchmen to push restrictive photo ID, limit early voting and make it harder to register.”

AllTheLight · 26/01/2017 18:09

Place marking

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 18:13

They want to act quick on voter fraud suppression, in order to get it through before the mid terms when the chances are the Republicans will loose a shed tonne of seats.

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RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 18:22

Reuters Top News ‏*@Reuters*
JUST IN: U.S. looking to reschedule meeting with Mexican President Pena Nieto - White House.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grammar-schools-parents-hundreds-budget-cutsheadteachers_uk_5888ac54e4b082549151271f?]]
Grammar Schools Could Ask Parents For ‘Hundreds Of Pounds A Year’ Due To Budget Cuts, Say Headteachers

Is this why May likes the idea of Grammar Schools? So parents can pay top up fees.

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