Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Peregrina · 27/01/2017 10:49

Ken Clarke seems to be the only decent Tory around these days.

prettybird · 27/01/2017 11:19

@britainelects: Kilmarnock East & Hurlford (East Ayshire) result:
SNP: 48.7% (+2.1)
LAB: 29.4% (-16.6)
CON: 20.1% (+12.7)
LBT: 1.8% (+1.8)

SNP HOLD

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2017 11:24

Some proposed a50 amendments:

Kate McCann ‏*@KateEMcCann*
SNP Article50 amendment: "Failure to approve the terms of exit for the UK will result in the maintenance of UK membership on existing terms"

By Harriet Harman:
Effect of Notification of Withdrawal
Nothing in this Act shall affect the continuation of those resident rights enjoyed by EU citizens lawfully resident in the United Kingdom on 23rd June 2016, under or by virtue of Directive 2004/38/EC after the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the EU.

OP posts:
whatwouldrondo · 27/01/2017 11:47

Thanks Red

I know it is not the point but I heard some interesting actual facts on the wall from an expert on Mexico yesterday.

Mexicans are not swarming over the wall, migration from Mexico is actually falling as many are actually returning to Mexico as a result of declining opportunities in the US. The real issue is migrants from other Central American countries. They already face barriers just getting through Mexico, where police now routinely stop buses and other transport and arrest anyone not carrying papers, this includes Mexicans and on occasion, British tourists, but also a lot of Central American migrants. This has the effect of throwing the migrants into the hands of the drug cartels, who as an example of their brutality massacred 76 migrants who had sought their help in one town in Mexico.

There already is a fence on parts of the border. The effect of that is to further throw the migrants into the hands of the cartels. Previously you could cross the border with the help of someone on the other side. Now you need to build a tunnel and the cartels are the only ones with the equipment to do that.

If the US really wanted to make a difference to the number of migrants crossing the border then they could do so by restricting the sale and flow of guns, most of the homicide and brutality throughout Central America is enabled by American guns (I forget the actual statistic)

The Mexican President may be easy on the eye but he is unpopular and there is little confidence that he will represent Mexico's interests because of his links to mafia groups.

squoosh · 27/01/2017 12:11

Ted Malloch - "I had ... a diplomatic post where I helped bring down the Soviet Union, so maybe there's another union that needs a little taming"

twitter.com/AlexSmithNBC/status/824944730148634624

Great. Further evidence that Trump and his puppet masters just want to fuck the EU entirely. And this guy is being touted as the next US ambassador to Britain. No doubt lots of brainless Brexiters will be wetting their knickers cheering him on.

squoosh · 27/01/2017 12:24

EU ambassador I should have said!

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2017 12:46

Emily Roslin v Praze ‏*@EmilyGorcenski*

Here's an updated State Department Org Chart.

Blue X's are unfilled appointee positions. Red X's are resignations.

Apparently the White House is leaking like a sieve and rumour is that all departments are like this. Apparently Priebus who is the White House Chief of Staff was close to resigning earlier in the week as a result as he's pretty much single handedly running the WH. He was talked into staying by Speak Ryan.

It explains the amount of executive orders though; there isn't the ability to work in another way. It also makes Trump have an extraordinary amount of power with little moderation.

Whether it is sustainable is questionable.

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
OP posts:
whatwouldrondo · 27/01/2017 13:03

A little side note to the proposed bill pulls us out of the European nuclear authority with no prior discussion or airing of the issues. www.ft.com/content/fe3b50a4-e3e1-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e5fb

Peregrina · 27/01/2017 13:25

From the FT article:
The UK government said: “Leaving Euratom is a result of the decision to leave the EU as they are uniquely legally joined. The UK supports Euratom and will want to see continuity of co-operation and standards. We remain absolutely committed to the highest standards of nuclear safety, safeguards and support for the industry.

My understanding was that it was a wholly different treaty, and one which didn't involve Germany for a start. I may be wrong on this.

“Our aim is clear: we want to maintain our mutually successful civil nuclear co-operation with the EU.”

What a joke. On the one hand we say 'Yah boo sucks, Europe, on the other 'We want to cooperate'. Which is it? The one thing you can guarantee is that when May or one of her flunkies says "It's clear" it means, "We haven't thought, but we will fob you off with whopping lies."

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 14:22

Greetings from bigchoc's bunker Grin

I'm not, or didn't used to be lib dem, but got in touch with lovely local councillor who's drafted postcards with this message to our local erstwhile remainer tory including:

"However you vote, we will of course not know whether or not you did follow your conscience but - you will".'

He's made them blank to be signed by constituents, and I'll distribute some this weekend, it's difficult to spot remainers, but will be brave!

I think the slogan now should be what Clarke and others have alluded to in recent press:

MPs or not delegates, they are representatives, the fact that a lot of the electorate don't know or understand that is their own problem.
MPs are not delegates.

This weekend is key for doing whatever to persuade anyone to email/ write to and phone MPs. Link up with any local remainers you can.
I understand there's very little chance of not blocking it, but you have to try, don't you?

Peregrina · 27/01/2017 14:41

The strange thing is that those MPs both Labour and Tory who themselves supported the Remain camp but had a Leave electorate, now seem to think they are delegates and must vote how their constituents did. Others, yes like you, Nicola Blackwood, have remembered that they are representatives, so are not going to consider that their constituents also voted Remain and are supporting Leave.

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 14:54

I just think that remain tories, in the several constituencies like this one which voted remain, are worth a shot (bad homonym) to see if they would vote it down, it just needs momentum (another one).
Is there any statistical breakdown we could use?
Such a pity there wasn't this fear, then MPs could vote with a bit of integrity.

TheSmurfsAreHere · 27/01/2017 15:01

So we have Ford saying they know they will millions due to Brexit and the fall of the pound
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-ford-cars-european-union-chief-jim-farley-pound-sterling-drop-slump-cost-company-a7548841.html

and then the weak pound apparently has boost sales of the car industry
www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/25/uk-manufacturers-weak-pound-exports-cbi-sterling-brexit

None of the newpapers are even in the DM and telegraph category.
So which one is it???

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 15:08

^Tam Dalyell: Labour MP who died this week said MPs should 'have the balls' to block Brexit
‘They should have the balls to say so and vote accordingly. This is a matter of cowardice if they don’t^’

BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2017 15:09

< are you eating all my choc stores there, woman Hmm ? Grin >

Those MPs who genuinely support Leave must of course continue to do so, but from what most were saying before the referendum, I hadn't thought most of them wanted the hard Brexit WTO option

This is why many of us now say Brexit was all about anti-immigration:
because advocating any form of "Soft Brexit" with FOM is demonised as Remainers not accepting the referendum decision

I don't believe that Remain MPs have been miraculously convinced that Brexit was a good idea after all
So, their change in position is cynical political calculation, to save their own jobs and - in the case of the Official Opposition - to avoid May calling a GE and thrashing their shambolic party.

We saw before that Labour abandoned its principles and voted for welfare cuts, to follow the crowd.
We now see Labour also pandering to reactionary voters on immigrants and feminism
The hard Left die Linke in Germany has also done this, hard left & hard right making common cause as in the UK.

PattyPenguin · 27/01/2017 15:13

I think the answer is in the sub-heading to the Grauniad story
"CBI poll finds factories reporting strong order books, but face rising costs due to sterling’s post-Brexit vote plunge"

It depends how the balance works out between paying more for imported raw materials and components and exporting more cars because of the weakness of Sterling.

Not to mention possible tariffs on the imports coming in, putting up the cost of manufacturing, and on the exports going out, which could possibly put off customers or, if the manufacturers choose to reduce prices to compete with tariff-free vehicles in the single market, eat into profit margins.

So I'm not surprised it's a mixed picture. I suppose the papers are merely reporting what the representatives and polls say. A little detailed analysis wouldn't go amiss, mind.

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 15:16

SWP and EDL and AFD and FN.
They always like beating each other up on demonstrations, maybe we should lock them all in a soft play area and leave them to it.
And get our Europe back.

Wasn't me BCF!Smile

SwedishEdith · 27/01/2017 15:17

Brexit as a game of Chicken

Attempts to explain May and Hammond's stance - clearly how they're being advised to behave.

Interesting points.

"Of course, a broad, constructive agreement is in everyone’s interest. As May rightly said: “Trade is not a zero-sum game: more of it makes us all more prosperous.” It stands to reason, then, that the EU should embrace free trade in goods and services with the UK — as should the many other trading partners that foreign secretary Boris Johnson tells us are “queueing up” to sign deals with the UK.

To which Schelling might respond: just because a mutually beneficial deal is achievable doesn’t mean it will be achieved. Mutual benefit isn’t enough. If it was, we wouldn’t need a free-trade deal at all. Every country would have unilaterally abandoned all barriers to trade long ago. Back in the real world, trade deals are stubbornly difficult and time-consuming to negotiate. To add to the difficulty, May badly needs to sign a deal with someone — Trump, perhaps, or China’s president Xi Jinping. But neither Trump nor Xi badly need to sign a deal with her. This is not a great starting point."

Tryingtosaveup · 27/01/2017 15:18

Leave voters are, of course, also lobbying their MP. Many of my leave friends have been emailing them telling them in no uncertain terms that, if they want to reelected they need to consider this vote very carefully.
Leave voters are not all uneducated, thick people who do not understand the issues.
We understand them very well.

SwedishEdith · 27/01/2017 15:21

And this story has reemerged.

Labour Leave campaigm funded by rigth-wing tory donors

Hmm.

SwedishEdith · 27/01/2017 15:22

Sorry about typos in that.

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 15:23

they want to reelected
That's not going to happen to anyone anymore.
Ken Clarke put it nicely when he said that people are bored with traditional parties.
Arron Banks has put it more indelicately.

Loyalty to constituents and vice versa has gone. Loyalty to party has gone.
I understand leave voters lobbying too, but hopefully one murdered mother won't be enough to stop MPs voting with their consciences.

Peregrina · 27/01/2017 15:24

Re the pulling out from Euratom. DS works for the Atomic Energy Authority. Yes, it is separate to the EU. No, the management were not consulted and this has come as a bolt from the blue and caused extreme anger.

I wonder just when May will realise that she is beginning to anger people in Senior positions who could be expected to vote Conservative. And all to show that she's a good PM, and happy to appease her right wing.

woman12345 · 27/01/2017 15:26

Swedish Shock Follow the money, this is not about the EU it's about 'draining the swamp' or old school coup, take your pick.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2017 15:27

Smurfs The lower pound makes UK exports cheaper
However, a Brexit that results in non-tariff barriers to the EU deal, like detailled customs checks, would make it much more cumbersome to export finished goods. This could outweigh the lower pound.

There would probably be quite a long time before both firms and customs staff learned the new procedures for all the documentation.
All countries would need to employ and train more customs staff, to do the extra work.
Industry would need more trained staff to produce all the new documentation

It would also bugger up the automotive supply chain that criss-crosses the EU
UK manufactured goods (not just cars) mostly use imported raw materials and components, which are normally bought with US dollars and now cost more GBPto do so
Even Marmite imports jars, packaging and fuel for transport

So, the overall effect depends on the particular firm.
However, the motor industry imports a lot of components, 40% for Ford iirc.