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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 11:50

I've had an interesting experiences with US border guards. I stayed with friends living over there rather than staying in hotel on numerous occasions and have travelled alone.

My last but one experience involved the border guard flirting with me. Very very uncomfortable. And you just have to stand and take it. With a smile on your face.

Its awful. I can't imagine it as a muslim going there even pre-Trump.

DH is keen to go at the moment (he was really pushing a few weeks back and I refused with what's going on as I fear it will get a lot more heated yet, and we booked somewhere in Europe instead), and was very shocked when I told him about the social media stuff. We are both v careful on politics on FB and twitter at the moment as it is but even then its how others interpret that. How do you know if what your friends say might be held against you? How do you know if merely being friends with too many of the 'wrong' people or merely following the 'wrong' accounts might be an issue. Who decides that?

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BlueEyeshadow · 29/01/2017 11:50

There are some suggestions for writing to MPs here:

No Brexit Blank Cheque

Clive Lewis' current position is set out here: www.facebook.com/labourclivelewis/posts/1256644634412341

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 11:57

Too early for reliable opinion polls on what the UK think of Trump's 7 countries ban.

However, it is relevant to examine a YouGov poll back in December 2015 when he proposed banning all Muslims from entry:
The poll showed results for voters of the main parties and it is striking that

UKIP supporters were 2:1 in favour of banning Muslims

For all other main parties, voters were overwhelmingly against the ban, especially the SNP and LDs.
Labour & Tory were also heavily against, but with Tories less so than Labour

This chasm between UKIP and other parties helps to explain some of the anger & misunderstanding between Remainers and Leavers about racism / hostility to immigrants:

The UKIP subset of Leavers have very extreme and unpleasant views predominating, but at least some of these aren't shared by most Leavers of other parties

I eagerly await a new poll on a ban, with party affiliations, but I expect the broad trends to be similar, because what is being asked is about fundamental values.

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 12:01

US Polls at the same time had about 50% of the US public in favour of a ban.
Clearly far more popular there (or Trump wouldn't have been elected)

missmoon · 29/01/2017 12:02

"US Polls at the same time had about 50% of the US public in favour of a ban."

I suspect that it is different to consider a ban in theory, than to see it happening in practice (affecting friends / colleagues, people with Green Cards etc.).

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 12:09

Peregina, a few points as it seems like you may have misunderstood me a little:

I don't necessarily think that most Remainers were reluctant.
Polling suggests majority were in the reluctant rather than pro-EU camp. This is not my opinion, but what the polling suggests.

I take issue with a few of your other points precisely because there has not been a free and fair debate on all these things and the definition of Brexit (inc single market) has been made unilaterally.

Now after midday, and the FOC travel advice for the USA remains unchanged since 23rd Jan. This is poor.

Especially with this now being reported:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-refugee-boris-johnson-parliament-account-british-citizens-dual-nationals-a7551716.html
Boris Johnson to be summoned to Parliament over British citizens hit by Donald Trump’s Muslim ban

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HashiAsLarry · 29/01/2017 12:11

The theory and practice are massively different. My dps were all in favour of a closed border policy here but are outraged that it means that it possibly affects them now. They thought they were the right type of immigrant. Hmm now other eu nationals are receiving prepare to leave letters they've been a lot less vocal.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 12:18

Dh's Dutch friend has had an interesting response on FB today.

She is living in the US on a Green Card. Married to an American. She is a Trump supporter. A now terrified Trump supporter who didn't understand how it might affect her personally.

DH rather diplomatically said nothing.

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Peregrina · 29/01/2017 12:21

Red - I suspect I live in something of a bubble - our big industries locally are a big teaching hospital, scientific research and BMW, so for most people dependent on EU grants or staff and a German car factory, Remain seemed the obvious.

I think we are in agreement about other points - my anger too is that there is no debate as to what Leave should mean. TM has appeased her right wing totally, and they are dictating what it should be.

At our meeting in Oxford on Friday, the mood was that Brexit would only be accepted with reluctance and that being in the Single Market must be the red line. I overheard some Greens talking about trying to bring down the Government, but that was only a snatched conversation. The Tory Leader tried to pretend that the commitment to the Single Market didn't stand because Cameron had gone, but there was no time to pick him up on this, to say that if that is the case, Theresa May has no mandate whatever. He also tried to rewrite history and say that Leave were always against the Single Market. I am too quietly spoken for them to hear me call out that Farage had extolled the Norway model. Another person shouted out 'Alternative Facts'.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 12:33

More Tory tweets:

James Berry MP ‏*@JamesBerryMP*
Trump's blanket ban on travel for people from some Muslim states incl. @nadhimzahawi is probably unlawful, definitely discriminatory & wrong

Royston Smith MP @Royston_Smith
President Donald Trump is living up to my very low expectations of him. Our 'Special Relationship' is with the American people, not him.

Sajid Javid ‏*@sajidjavid*
Farage is wrong to try and defend US immigration ban. These are not British values #bbcsp

Sam Coates of the Times raises an eyebrow at a couple though.

Sam Coates Times ‏*@SamCoatesTimes*
Some Tory MPs look like they are walking on a tightrope over Trump....

Nadine Dorries ‏*@NadineDorriesMP*
Prime Ministers do not publicly and openly criticise our allies. That happens in private. We are not Americans. We did not vote for him. 1/2
2/2 I would be horrified and so would the entire diplomatic, peaceful world be, if the PM publicly criticised American policy

How come Canada and Germany have managed it.... ?

Henry Smith MP @HenrySmithMP
.@theresa_may is an effective @Number10gov delivering UK trade/security while recognising too no foreign government is fully policy aligned.

Robert Peston has asked Johnson very directly in response to this tweet what 'protecting' might entail:

Boris Johnson ‏**@BorisJohnson**
We will protect the rights and freedoms of UK nationals home and abroad. Divisive and wrong to stigmatise because of nationality

Robert Peston ‏*@Peston*
.@BorisJohnson - if @realDonaldTrump is attacking rights of UK nationals with Muslim ban, as Johnson says,can Queen's invite to Trump stand?

Gov Petition to stop Trump coming to UK at 80,000 sigs. Need 100,000 for parliamentary debate...

Question: will Trump touch the Queen? Will he try and hold her hand?(against protocol to touch the Queen).

Now after midday. Still nothing more from May but an 'if'.

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whatwouldrondo · 29/01/2017 12:38

It is strangely hypnotic watching the number of who has signed the petition going up a few hundred when it refreshes every few seconds. It climbed over 90000 as I watched, sure to be 100k now......

Peregrina · 29/01/2017 12:41

Gone over 100,000 now.

IrenetheQuaint · 29/01/2017 12:42

The petition is over 100,000 now! A parliamentary debate in response to a petition is usually a meaningless formality, but in this case I'm sure that a lot of MPs will get behind it.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 12:44

Quick no one is looking as they are all talking about Trump. Slip out bad news about the NHS

I SAID NOBODY WILL NOTICE THIS GEM AS THEY ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT TRUMP INSTEAD

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-cuts-spending-policies-theresa-may-jeremy-hunt-tories-labour-lib-dems-a7549686.html
NHS spending per person will be cut next year, ministers confirm
Thefunding constraints come despite the unfolding ‘humanitarian crisis’in the health service

Whoops.

Petition at 100,000.

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Peregrina · 29/01/2017 12:45

Will Theresa May wake up and realise that she has misjudged the mood of the public on this? Which used to include her own opinion, until it became expedient not to.

TheElementsSong · 29/01/2017 12:52

NHS spending per person will be cut next year, ministers confirm

Where's our £350 million a week?!

whatwouldrondo · 29/01/2017 12:53

Sadiq Khan ^"President Trump’s ban on refugees and immigrants from certain countries is shameful and cruel.

The USA has a proud history of welcoming and resettling refugees. The President can’t just turn his back on this global crisis - all countries need to play their part.

While every country has the right to set its own immigration policies, this new policy flies in the face of the values of freedom and tolerance that the USA was built upon.

I’m pleased that the Prime Minister has now said she and the government do not agree with President Trump’s policy, which will affect many British citizens who have dual nationality, including Londoners born in countries affected by the ban.

I will work with the government on behalf of Londoners affected.

As a nation that, like the USA, values tolerance, diversity and freedom, we cannot just shrug our shoulders and say: ‘It’s not our problem’."^

To those who say it's not our problem on here, do we take it that you do not think that the British values we should stand up for in the world do not include valuing tolerance, diversity and freedom?

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 12:55

Mo Farah

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.
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TheSmurfsAreHere · 29/01/2017 12:59

Maybe some British people could do with remembering that what Mo Farah feels as a Brit living in the US is exactly what European citizens feel in the uk....

whatwouldrondo · 29/01/2017 13:07

SP On the petition doesn't the sight of a narcissistic nutjob grabbing Theresa May's hand as a result of one of his many no doubt phobias make you question allowing him to fulfill another of his nutjob obsessions and fulfill his need for validation from his dead mother, the cause of his narcissism, by making a state visit. I dread to think what psychological process led to him grabbing May's hand and what they might lead him to do to our 90 year old monarch.......

Motheroffourdragons · 29/01/2017 13:08

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 13:10

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-mps-rebellion-theresa-may-article-50-brexit-plan-a7551711.html
Tory MPs considering rebellion over Theresa May’s refusal to publish Brexit plan

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RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 13:11

Touching the Queen = Against Royal Protocol.

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Peregrina · 29/01/2017 13:15

Trump won't know the first thing about Royal Protocol. If he does touch the Queen, what exactly would she do? Get her bodyguards to arrest him and bundle him onto the next plane out?

InformalRoman · 29/01/2017 13:28

Just in case anyone has forgotten, Trump always said he wanted to ban Muslims from entering the US.

Nicola Sturgeon called him on it in Dec 2015.

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/donald-trump-stripped-of-business-ambassador-for-scotland-role-following-muslim-ban-comments-a6766756.html

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