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Brexit

Westministenders: Ding Ding Ding! All Aboard! Boris’s Brexit Bus gets going.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2017 14:08

The Judges have Ruled.

They have restored parliamentary sovereignty to the people from the crown. Hard line Brexiteers don’t like it. This is how democracy looks though. Everyone gets a say, even people who you don’t agree with. Bloody Bremoaners. If irony wasn’t dead on 24th June, it was hung drawn and quartered on 24th Jan. I hope in time Gina Miller will get the recognition she deserves in history.

What does it actually mean for Brexit though? Can Brexit be thwarted by the decision?

Short Answer: No Brexit can not be stopped. The ‘Will of the People’ will be respected ultimately. (Though also worth stating the ‘Will of the People’ is not a fixed thing. The 23rd June vote was a mere snapshot of a moment in time. The Will of the People is ever changing and this should never be forgotten).

A majority of MPs have pledged to vote for a50. Whether the LDs, Greens, Labour Remainers and SNP oppose Brexit is ultimately irrelevant. Talks of ‘frustrating Brexit’ is nothing more than hot air from people frustrated they are not getting everything on their terms alone.

Why is the ruling important though? What next? What you should look out for? (Trying to keep this as brief as possible on immediate effect)

  1. There is no reason (at this point) to suggest that May will miss her March 31st deadline.

  2. The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill is scheduled to go through the HoC between Jan 31 and Feb 8. Two days of debate will be in the HoC on Tuesday (with parliament sitting until midnight) and Wednesday with the key vote on Wednesday. The following week on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday will go to the committee and report stages and for the third reading (See this FT article Brexit bill likely to face biggest trials in House of Lords for details of what happens at what stage). That makes 5 days total and is significantly less than other important European decisions. It is being viewed as an attempt to gag parliament by many.

  3. The opposition normally agree to common’s timetabling before making such announcements. Several Labour and Conservative MPs are calling for Labour to vote against the timetable. It is not clear normal procedure has been followed, on this occasion, however Corbyn has imposed a three line whip on it after a heated shadow Cabinet meeting. This seems to suggest Labour whips agreed timetable. A large scale rebellion and (more) shadow cabinet resignations could well be on the cards.

  4. Lords could yet, get more time to debate the bill than Commons, due to government not setting debating time. That alone would be something of a scandal.

  5. The government have conceded over the publication of a white paper and say it now will happen, however rumours are that the government are trying to delay its publication until AFTER the a50 debate has finished. This makes the whole thing a farce. Its not obvious what Tory Rebels will do under the circumstances. It is theoretically possible there may be enough for a government defeat, but that is a now an extreme possibility with Corbyn imposing a three line whip. (That in itself might embolden a few Tories though).

  6. When MPs voted to support a50 in December this only passed due to an amendment requiring the government to produce a plan. Always worth remembering this important caveat. It will be omitted by a lot of media coming media coverage if MPs support any amendments or seek to obstruct a vote due to a lack of detail as a ‘betrayal’. It is not. It is a consistent request and a necessary part of scrutiny.

  7. The Brexit Select Committee which is supposed to scrutinise the government just got more important. Its recommendations carry weight and will influence the decisions that MPs make.

  8. Amendments to a50 law will be crucial. The SNP have suggested they want FIFTY. Most will just be rubbish, but they hopefully would have at least generate proper debate. This could be a worthwhile process regardless of how it might be framed, however the timetable makes that difficult if not impossible to do. Rather than frustrating things it could have been part of a positive process to help build consensus and tackle certain concerns.

  9. Labour has been handed a chance to get out of the government blaming them for a bad deal. It gives them a chance to hold the government more accountable and get their teeth into things. It is their chance to throw away. They need to stand up and not roll over. Corbyn's Three Line Whip is exactly that. Now is the time to pester MPs over amendments. (Equally applies to Leavers concerned about Tory Brexit).

  10. Chuka Umunna has suggested an amendment to give £350 million to the NHS. It would be an opportunity to draw some much needed battle lines about the future of the NHS and a chance to make ground to protect it which would be an important position for Labour. I don’t see it happening, but you can hope.

  11. The danger for Labour is to join SNP in a ‘road block’ of amendments. They will need to be selective in their approach.

  12. What Rebel Tories do next is important. These are both Leavers and Remainers and this should not be forgotten. It gives them a lot more power.

  13. The Supreme Court ruled against the devolved assemblies. This has two effects. It might heighten the temptation and support for Independence. It might also force nationalists to work with their English peers where there is common ground. Thus unifying opposition in the United Kingdom.

  14. The legal position is now established as the GFA only refers to NI’s place in the UK, not the EU. This leaves the door open for NI to choose Ireland and the EU. Similar rejection of the Sewell convention having legal effect, makes the case for a new Scottish Independence bid.

  15. How 10) and 11) are handled is crucial to the country’s future. May needs to be more sensitive. Whilst there is no appetite for independence / reunification at present this may yet change as a result of Brexit. It does not necessarily weaken the nationalist’s hands in the long run. Amendments relating to assurance around devolution could still be a sticking point if other parties support. (I think fair chance they will in order to try and prevent break up of the UK. England & Wales dominated by Conservatives forever otherwise). It also put DUP in interesting position.

  16. May is doing more shit stirring in NI saying the IRA needs to be investigated more and suggesting soldiers were ‘persecuted’. This is inflammatory stuff. If she carries on, don’t expect the GFA to last. At this point, I might be tempted to say, that she wants it to break so she can enforce Brexit and remove the Human Rights Act.

  17. The issue of a50 reversibility has not gone away. The positions of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems would be vastly strengthened by reversibility. This is not to stop Brexit as such, but because it strengthens their demands to get a deal that they think is in the best interests of the UK because it would be potentially easier to reject a Tory Brexit. The legal case to try and get an ECJ referral is ongoing in Ireland and is important.

  18. The possibility of a second referendum, has also not gone away gone away. If EU states have to agree to a deal and some put it to their citizens, that makes it more politically difficult for it not to be put to the British.

  19. There is still a strong chance of more legal challenges to Brexit. There are lots of unresolved issues relating to rights which the Supreme Court did not resolve through the a50 challenge. This is for government to decide upon – and if it does not address those issues, then individuals will have no alternative to go through the courts to seek clarity on their positions. Most notably is positions of British Citizens abroad and EU citizen married or with children in UK.

  20. Government has made a notable backtracking about the role of the rule of law and the authority of the courts. This is progress and perhaps an acknowledgement of how they handled it so poorly in December and how they can not act unopposed.

  21. May’s speech last week was protective against this, so she can make the political point that she tried. She has in some ways protected herself against a Kipper backlash by actually proving it was not possible to carry out some of their proposals. This might actually be good in the long run for fighting the far right in the UK.

  22. The Government Appeal was effectively totally unnecessary. Expect a FOI request to give someone a stick to beat the government with.

  23. Don’t forget the Lords. They ultimately won’t oppose a50. It threatens their existence and would provoke a constitutional crisis which most will seek to prevent. Their job is to act in the national interest, to act for the best interests of the people, to uphold democracy and our constitutional framework. That means they can not ultimately block a50. They might insist on amendments though, especially if the Commons don’t do their job properly.

  24. The Stoke and Copeland By-Elections are unlikely to be too affected by the ruling at this stage – as it is unchanged from Dec This might change though. If a50 going through parliament has been concluded by 23rd Feb, Remainers are most likely to be unhappy. If a50 bill looks like it is being ‘road blocked’ Leavers might get more enraged and motivated to turnout.

  25. None of this means that Hard Brexit won’t happen. The EU still has the upper hand here. The deal we are seeking might not be possible. It does however mean that parliament rather than the government should have a more active role in proceedings.

  26. Final point is that the ruling gives a chance of consensus in the National Interest and not just that of Hardline Leavers. The wording of the bill, perhaps doesn't. It looks like May’s Tory First Policy, is still full steam ahead. I thought it would change the tone of debate as the government would be forced to change tact. Its not looking likely.

Next stop on the Brexit –Aeroplane-- Bus; Trump's America.

That’s sure to be guaranteed torture to witness.

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GloriaGaynor · 29/01/2017 10:54

As has been pointed out on this and other threads, not all leavers are trump supporters

Of course not. The problem is they are supporting a PM who is.

GloriaGaynor · 29/01/2017 10:56

Of course there are Leave voters who don't support May.

HesterThrale · 29/01/2017 10:56

The desperate and sycophantic 'Are we at the front of the queue for trade deals?' from Farage and Gove to the US, partly serves to make us think there is competition. From now on, I bet there is no queue. Just us. No-one behind us.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 10:59

Fatima Manji @fatimamanji
Prince Charles now being considered a "risk factor" in planned Trump visit to UK because Trump a climate change denier
Trump team also concerned thousands of British people would take to streets in protest when he visits UK

Well that is easily solved Trump team.

Don't come.

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woman12345 · 29/01/2017 11:00

Some ideas for actions as well as MP writing:

Boycott US service, product, industries now. ( lot of online stuff!)
NHS EU workers strike a la Peregrina model, with full support of whoever the fuck non migrants are supposed to be.
Consumer strike; targeted
Transport workers strike.
Responses need to be canny.
Need to work with like minded trade unions they have the organisation in place, it was why I mentioned USDAW, we are the main supermarket customer base, use it.
Protests and demonstrations can look like the people the racists hate, on a jolly. But they still have their place. They are as useful to the protestors as anyone else.
(And I stay away, argue back against SWP who try to dominate protests, I will have nothing to do with them. Scoundrels.)

Churches?
We have a lovely vicar and his wife here.
How can they stand by and watch while immigration authorities are doing that there and here?
I'm going to contact them too and maybe other church goers might think about doing the same?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 11:03

(Allegedly) Why May held hands

Trump has "bathmophobia"

That's not what you think: he's a dirty bugger, but not in the sense of being bath-phobic

He's phobic about walking down even a gentle slope:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/28/revealed-real-reason-donald-trump-theresa-may-held-hands-not/

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 11:05

The total number of gun related deaths in the USA in 2016 was 15,049
So Trump decided to keep guns and keep out Muslims (they might be safer out)

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 11:05

airbnb first of many companies to support actions.
Another probably primary line of action: FB and Google already furious.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-muslim-travel-ban-airbnb-free-housing-a7551596.html

SemiPermanent · 29/01/2017 11:05

*You voted for some very unsavoury people and now you're whining because you didn't see where could lead.

Well Remainers did.*

Ffs.

All hail Remainers for being the enlightened beacons of hope and reason....

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2017 11:08

Mark Twain:
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."

GhostofFrankGrimes · 29/01/2017 11:08

All hail Remainers for being the enlightened beacons of hope and reason....

I don't see much hope and reason from Trump, Farage, Johnson, Gove or May.

SemiPermanent · 29/01/2017 11:09

Trump has "bathmophobia"

A very simple solution to all this is to surround his bedroom with wheelchair access ramps then - he can then remain under voluntary incarceration.....

Headfullofdreams · 29/01/2017 11:09

If you want a FFS, see Surfer's comments on the other thread.

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. Completely agree.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 11:10

Up thread was a statistic on falling off bar stool eating a peanut in US being more of mortal threat than so called islamic terror !
Bush almost died in a pretzel related assault! Grin
These fascists: May, Trump and Erdogan are more terrifying than any fuckwit with a rucksack.

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 11:11

Absolutely Headfullofdreams
And that forgets to mention really angry mums! Grin

woman12345 · 29/01/2017 11:12

Michael Oman-ReaganVerified account
‏*@OmanReagan*

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Trump's EO also states that no one with "hostile attitudes" toward the US can enter. Expect this to be used broadly by border agents.

GloriaGaynor · 29/01/2017 11:15

All hail Remainers for being the enlightened beacons of hope and reason....

Unlikely but true.

It's not reasonable to turn against the EU, it's not reasonable to tear up 40 years of treaties, nor to turn against EU migrants, nor to wreck trade and the economy in the hope of blocking a few foreigners, nor wreck the GFA in NI and impose hard borders, it's not reasonable not to understand that increased immigration access will be the red line in any trade deals from India, commonwealth countries - Aus, NZ etc.

In the age of unreason some people haven't lost their marbles.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 11:19

It is now a requirement to give details of your social media accounts to US border if asked. I believe it was actually introduced under Obama in fairness. Which does show the harshness of border control under Obama. Trump called this weak and wants "extreme vetting" - which was in effect ALREADY happening.

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TheElementsSong · 29/01/2017 11:24

It is now a requirement to give details of your social media accounts to US border if asked.

Ah well, that's me screwed Grin my FB and Twitter are full of uncomplimentary posts about the tangoed shitgibbon. Although, having being born in a Muslim country (the List being set to grow) I was kinda screwed anyway.

Headfullofdreams · 29/01/2017 11:25

We are supposed to be going this summer. Looks like their tourism will be fucked if they rely on this.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2017 11:28

All hail Remainers for being the enlightened beacons of hope and reason....

MOST Remainers were reluctant. MOST felt that EU was not necessarily working.

However the alternative and the consequences of leaving were worse.

It was an on balance argument for the vast majority.

MOST Remainers would now accept a reasoned and calm and rational response to Brexit. They would like to be listened to and not railroaded. Nor called traitors for exercising legal rights or opinions in the face of undemocratic tactics.

MOST Remainers accept Brexit. What they don't accept, is blindly leaping off a cliff. Nor do they accept EU citizens being thrown under the bus and a policy of active hostility by the home office to EU citizens.

This is really the line in the sand I draw.

Brexit must be reasonable, rational and be free and fairly debated. It must treat our EU partners and friends as that - friends, not enemies etc. It must be done through diplomatic channels. It must not be done with a gun to the head. The pillars of democracy should not be undermined in the process. It must be honest and realistic. It should outline what our alternative is going to be. Any costs should be clearly represented and understood.

I don't like Brexit but I dislike the way it is being carried out more.

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whatwouldrondo · 29/01/2017 11:31

Trump team also concerned thousands of British people would take to streets in protest when he visits UK Do you think they saw our discussions several threads ago about how we were going to make ourselves heard through the walls of Windsor Castle? Looks like a definite plan now.....

The alacrity with which the border authority have acted on the EO detaining and interrogating people and checking their social media for anti trump rhetoric does not surprise me at all. I have had two bad experiences of them back in the 80s. Spent 7 hours detained at San Francisco Airport, in spite of having a visa and a letter from my employer confirming I had a well paid career in the U.K., simply because I was staying at a private address. I was not just cross examined on every aspect of my life but also had a parade of Neanderthals come through the room to lear and make sexist comments. In the end I lost it and said "put me back on the plane. I don't want to visit this fucking country anyway" At which they laughed and let me go through to meet my anxious friend who had waited all that time without any explanation. Thank god there was no Facebook then, they would have had a field day with my anti Reagan views. The other experience was when they detained my colleague in Miami, who had MS which meant that we worked around his need for rest and not to be stressed, for five hours, just because he looked like someone on their wanted list. This was before Islamic terrorism but he was still subjected to Islampohobic questioning, which given he wasn't religious and came from Burnley he found quite eye opening.

I am now pretty much phobic of them....

whatwouldrondo · 29/01/2017 11:37

I only wrote to my wet Tory MP on Friday but given she tweeted "We should welcome Syrian refugees" in 2015 her silence on twitter in the last 24 hours is deafening, and I feel another coming on. Meanwhile Vince Cable, who she ousted has tweeted "Appalling error by May to grovel to #Trump for trade deal. He wants to destroy #freetrade"

Peregrina · 29/01/2017 11:37

I don't fully agree Red - I don't necessarily think that most Remainers were reluctant.
Most Remainers knew that there was much room for improvement in the EU. In that respect Corbyn's 7/10 was about right.

I would accept a compromise of access to the Single Market, but that is not accepting Brexit.

I don't accept the argument about Parliament having to enact the will of the people. In part because we don't know what a Leave deal would be. In part we have a Parliamentary democracy and if we don't we might as well dissolve Parliament forthwith, if that's the case

Mistigri · 29/01/2017 11:38

I can't keep up with this thread and have any semblance of a life lol.

I think we realised last night/this morning how dangerous Brexit is if it sends us straight into the arms of a dictator. Surely that has to be the thrust of any campaigning now: delay the A50 until what's happening in the US becomes clearer.

I'm reading seriously troubling stuff this morning - stuff that makes you wonder whether what's happening in the US doesn't come close to a coup by unelected people like Bannon who are using an old man with possible dementia/ a personality disorder to further their agenda.

  • Joint chiefs of staff sidelined in favour of Bannon
  • Trump has already declared his candidacy for the 2020 election - sounds benign but actually this is highly unusual and was clearly done because it limits the work of some activist bodies for whom it is illegal to undertake actions which can be construed as campaigning against an election candidate

It feels like the fucking apocalypse.

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