Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris, May and Judgement Day

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 13:49

Well its finally here. The day America changes forever. Good luck planet earth.

Our day of reckoning is beckoning too.

Tuesday is Supreme Court Judgement Day.

At 9.30 Lord Nueberger and the other ten justices will convene and he will read out their judgement.

Contrary to some suggestions this does not mean the decision is necessarily unanimous. It is normal for the Supreme Court to do this.

Nueberger will read any disagreements out as part of the judgment.
Their ruling will be far reaching in its importance however it goes.

A victory for the government will mean a50 can be triggered as and when Theresa May likes. That could be Tuesday afternoon in theory.

If it’s a victory for the claimants then things get much more complicated. It depends on how far the justices go.

It could rule that parliament need to vote on a50.

It could rule that the Great Repeal Act must be passed before a50 can be invoked.

It could rule that the Scottish and NI Assemblies must agree to a50 being invoked.

It could rule that the Good Friday Agreement must be resolved before a50 can be invoked.

It could rule that issues over acquired rights must be resolved before invoking a50.

It could draw other conclusions that we have not thought of.

A strong victory for the claimants could seriously hamper May’s plans for Brexit. Which is exactly why she has laid out her vision and has prepared the battle lines ready for her next round of blame laying.

None of this will be because the government has been short sighted.

If there is a strong victory, remember that May could have avoided the situation by accepting the High Court’s ruling in December that she needed Parliament’s consent to trigger a50. Anything more that makes triggering a50 more difficult is her sole responsibility and she had the power to avoid. Much of the right wing press will tell you differently.

We've heard so much about Hard Brexit and Soft Brexit. We should also talk of Democratic and Undemocratic Brexit. How Brexit is managed and how we conduct ourselves is arguably as important to the future as economics. It is right to oppose Undemocratic Brexit. It is important to make that distinction and all the principles that fall under that concept. What opposition there is need to get their shit together on this principle. Using patriotism to stifle this wholly wrong and unhealthy. Saying Brexit must happen no matter what, regardless of how bad it is and regardless of the cost is wrong.

Make the case for democracy. Keep talking about it. Talk about where it is failing and what we must do to strengthen it, not undermine it.

Here lies Labour's policy on Brexit. "We support Democratic Brexit which is the will of the people. This is how we define this. This is what is needed economic and socially." You can find the necessary slogans from this and start defining it outward from that. So far they have failed to capture this sentiment concisely into a soundbite that people can start to develop and push a left wing liberal agenda on their own terms from. Their PR is shocking and they are incoherent. May owned Corbyn at PMQ earlier this week on these grounds. This is not because they have been misrepresented by the press or been the victim of biased media. Its because they have been shit and have failed to set their own agenda and instead are dancing to everyone else's.

Here’s hoping that democracy will win through the challenges of the next few years. Democracy is about elections and referendums, but it is also so much more. It is about on going debate and the freedom of this debate, freedom of the press, a range of political parties and points of view, the independent judiciary, the right to oppose the state, freedom to exercise your legal rights, freedom of speech, an understanding of equality and an understanding and above all else - respect for of all of the above. It does not bode well that much of the right wing press and right wing politicians are telling us differently.

So much hope about our futures now rests with Angela Merkel one way or another.

Meanwhile Corbyn could face a major rebellion over a50 if he pursues a three line whip rather than a free vote. 60 - 80 Labour MPs are threatening not to tow the party line with shadow cabinet resignations potentially also on the cards.

Brace yourselves the roller coaster is just about to hit a one big drop.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
woman12345 · 22/01/2017 21:55

Why is this not on BBC are in the papers?

Peregrina · 22/01/2017 21:58

Could you then see the US as some sort of self-contained Empire? All Empires fade, which may be why the US with 80 -100 years of pre-eminence is starting to go into real decline. I read once that no Republic lasts for more than 400 years. How much is the same of Empires?

woman12345 · 22/01/2017 22:08

Most Americans don't have passports, they barely know what's happening in their own country, never mind what the UN is for. Looks more like we're all heading towards city states across the world, and the rest of countries will just service the cities. Scott Fitzgerald was mourning the death of US, like Roman empire at the end of The Great Gatsby in 1920s.

However, back to business. As red said, it's the autocratic and frankly bananas way he's conducting himself which is the focus.
The constitution is America and all the freedoms and democracy in that have to be protected, just like ours. It's a country founded on a concept of democracy. Twitter is up and going with contacts of senators to lobby. All we can do is the same. Has anyone ever managed to meet their MP?

Lico · 22/01/2017 22:28

Re China:
Napoleon , in 1816,whilst in St. Helena, wrote the following words:

When China wakes up, the world will shake'

In 1973, Pierrefytte, used this sentence as the title of his book. The book describes precisely what is happening now. Not sure whether it has been translated in English

northstarcompass.org/french/nscfr84/awake.htm

lurkinghusband · 22/01/2017 22:29

Huey Long

There is a Huey Long bridge in New Orleans ...

Lico · 22/01/2017 22:30

Sorry, Alain Peyrefitte

RedToothBrush · 22/01/2017 22:35

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/defence/military-campaigns/news/82592/ex-defence-chief-government-acting-north-korea-over
Ex-defence chief: Government acting like North Korea over Trident test

“If a firing goes wrong you should say that it’s gone wrong unless you think there’s something that means it’s so fundamentally wrong the whole system is no longer viable,” he said.

“From what the Government say there was a minor glitch with the missile and they are quite happy with the system still - in which case go ahead and let people know.

“Otherwise we are a bit rather like the Soviet Union used to be, or like North Korea or China, where they won’t admit to things going wrong.”

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 22/01/2017 22:45

Darran Anderson ‏*@Oniropolis*
George Orwell on the vital importance of objective truth (from his essay 'Looking back on the Spanish War') incredibly prescient reading for the times in which we live

Please take the time to read.

Westministenders. Boris, May and Judgement Day
Westministenders. Boris, May and Judgement Day
OP posts:
woman12345 · 22/01/2017 22:49

Sounds about right, Obama's impressive social and economic legacy about to be Blaired.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2017 22:49

I've never been impressed by the US Constitution
The Constitution which recognised and protected slavery
which dealt with slavery as a matter of property rights.

imo, this formal codification of African Americans as property, together with a large body of associated laws, is a poison that seeped deep into the US and poisoned the foundations of their society.
The GOP kept feeding the poison and then suddenly the monster they created became their master.

woman12345 · 22/01/2017 23:00

Fair point BigChoc

woman12345 · 22/01/2017 23:05

Downing Street has been accused of covering up the failure, which was reported in the Sunday Times.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/22/defence-secretary-sir-michael-fallon-face-mps-trident-missile/
Fallon not May to be questioned.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2017 23:12

May's chances of a special "bigly" British trade deal with Trump Hmm

Pros:
He seems to associate Brexit with his own victory
He likes the queen and would enjoy a visit to Buck House, ride in a gold coach
He'd love a knighthood
His ego could be further massaged by concessions the UK can afford, e.g. removing the offending windfarm from the view of his Scottish golfcourse, possibly even a United Ireland (he attended Sinn Fein fundraising events)

Cons:
Can he get any agreement through Congress, within the necessary time / at all ?

And any imagined offence to the Orange Ego, random mood change, or just losing interest and throwing the UK toy out of his pram ....
He's not exactly consistent about friends / enemies

Trump, December, 2010:
"You look at WikiLeaks. I mean, in China, if this would've happened the people would get a bullet through their head within 24 hours."

"I think it's disgraceful. I think there should be like death penalty or something."

Trump, 22 October 2016:
"Boy, we love WikiLeaks."

RedToothBrush · 22/01/2017 23:16

The Constitution is of it time. It has strength in its history experience as well as weakness. I agree with the codification of African Americans but it also contains wisdom about the tyranny of the British Empire and how it should be resisted.

A wisdom that England currently has an issue with and can not recognise in itself. How we wrote history and our role in it, in terms of not being objective is partly the reason we are here now. We do not have a written constitution and yet we still have this gap in our ability to see ourselves as how we really are. Our history has been written to erase our colonial tyranny. To erase the history of those who are not white or male.

Therefore to blame the constitution itself I think is wrong. Its how history has been taught differently in different places by a particular group in society that is the issue. It is the lack of mixing between the writers of history and other groups in society. It is the lack of seeing others as equals by those who write history. It is the unwillingness to see fault within yourself that is the issue.

US Patriotism is a best that the British struggle to understand. It is brash and bold and unashamed. It is proud and uncompromising. It contains little humility. It is actually everything that Trump is.

British Patriotism is a lot more understated. It is fractured between our 4 Kingdoms. It is self deprecating in many ways. To be British is to moan but rarely do anything to change things and to predict the worst but hope for the best. It harks back to past glories but does not celebrate the present very often. When we have moments of patriotic fervour it tends to come as something of a surprise and its short lived. We don't tend to get too carried away, unless there is a national event and its somehow 'allowed'. Its not spontaneous and constant.

Strangely Brexit is somehow about releasing ourselves from those shackles of when it is 'proper' to celebrate being British (or more accurately English). Which is why I think it appeals and brings this idea of Freedom that I don't think others necessarily get.

As a Citizen of Nowhere, I find the subject of patriotism being so different in different cultures fascinating.

History is written by the victors so rarely contains the necessary critical eye.

Compare with patriotism in Germany and Japan. In Japan in particular it is something of a modern day taboo in some respects.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 22/01/2017 23:19

www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change-risk-assessment-global-warming-government-accused-burying-report-a7540726.html
Government 'tried to bury' its own alarming report on climate change
Exclusive: The five-yearly assessment of what will happen to the UK as the world warmssays one of an array of potential threatsis the ‘significant risk’to supplies of food

OP posts:
Peregrina · 22/01/2017 23:21

Trump will no doubt get his visit to Buck House. The Queen has had to meet some pretty odious specimens in her time, so one more will make little difference.

HesterThrale · 22/01/2017 23:23

David Davis will introduce an A50 bill to Parliament immediately after the Tuesday court ruling:

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/20/david-davis-preparing-address-parliament-hours-supreme-court/amp/?client=safari

We need to email Conservative MPs asking if they believe it's right to abandon staying in the single market when there is absolutely NO mandate for this - page 72 of Tory manifesto ('safeguard British interests in the Single Market'):

s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/manifesto2015/ConservativeManifesto2015.pdf

Also email Labour Remain MPs in Remain constituencies asking if they feel they are representing their constituents by going along with TMs plans for a Hard Brexit.

Does anyone have a list of such Labour MPs? It's complicated as the following MPs wouldn't need to be asked - they've already written to TM opposing Hard Brexit plans:

www.voteleavewatch.org.uk/43_labour_mps_write_to_may_opposing_plans_for_a_hard_brexit

Peregrina · 23/01/2017 00:21

Is the Telegraph changing its tune?

This does not read like the sycophantic twaddle we have read of late:
I’m sorry, but despite the euphoric plaudits which greeted Theresa May’s Brexit speech on Tuesday, she could hardly have come up with a plan more utterly bizarre and potentially catastrophic.

I can't read much more because I would have to register, and I am not prepared to show Murdoch any support. So there might of course be a twist and that it's all right really - sunlit uplands and unicorns await.

SwedishEdith · 23/01/2017 00:32

"A bill to withdraw the US from the United Nations has been submitted to Congress as the 'American Sovereignty Restoration Act'."

OK, what does that mean? Who can submit/raise/create a bill?

SwedishEdith · 23/01/2017 00:35

Telegraph isn't Murdoch (yet?). But, no, can't be bothered enough to pay for it.

annandale · 23/01/2017 00:35

'American Sovereignty Restoration Edict' surely?

Sorry. Lighthearted.

Peregrina · 23/01/2017 00:45

I forgot, Telegraph is Barclay Bros, isn't it? One of whom wants to support Murdoch and one who doesn't. Either way, not prepared to pay or even register to get a free article.

SwedishEdith · 23/01/2017 01:05

Here's a bit more of it, *Peregrina

"I’m sorry, but despite the euphoric plaudits which greeted Theresa May’s Brexit speech on Tuesday, she could hardly have come up with a plan more utterly bizarre and potentially catastrophic. She showed no real sign of understanding the fearsome complexities of what a successful disentanglement from the EU would involve. The most trenchant verdict came from the German press, led by Der Spiegel, which said she is clearly living in the German equivalent of “cloud-cuckoo land”.

Of all the seven veils behind which she had long hidden her thinking on Brexit, the only one she had previously lifted was her repeated insistence that she wished us to continue trading “within” the EU single market. But she now emphatically rejected this, along with the only practical course which would have allowed us to do so. That “EEA/Efta option” could also have given us other advantages, including the unilateral..."

Someone, somewhere might be able to get the full article?

Porkchopsandgravy · 23/01/2017 07:02

I wanted to say thank you so much for these threads, there is no where else that I have found which gives such a comprehensive analysis of the situation(s).

I finally have something to add - I wrote to my safe as chips, remainer Labour MP last week and implored him to support democracy and vote with his (remain) conscience as a leave vote based on lies and smokescreens was not democratic.

I also pointed out that as an MP in a remain constituency a vote for A50 could decrease local support and votes for him in future.

Porkchopsandgravy · 23/01/2017 07:04

Ideally, it would be great to have a set template to write to all such MPs as I suspect many people (as myself) would struggle to articulate properly. Unfortunately I could not find one online.

Swipe left for the next trending thread