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Brexit

Westministers: Boris and May give us the Brexit Leeming Plan.

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 15:17

Theresa May has made a speech.

It’s a wish list for hard core Brexiteers. It’s a large corporate executive’s wet dream for exploitation.

Even requests for a white paper as recommended by the Brexit Committee have been ignored. Thus meaning there is no chance for proper scrutiny. Plus whilst on the one hand parliament have been told they will have a vote on the end deal, this is merely slight of hand, with Davis stating that if parliament vote against this, then we will leave the EU without a deal in a chaotic exit. Thus making the vote an exercise with a gun to parliament's head.

Workers Rights and the Welfare State die with Brexit. Even the precious NHS. Especially the precious NHS once its been stole off to the highest American bidder.

May is being lobbied by her hard right and to save her next she listens only to them. She has no interest in listening to anyone else. The demographic and voting patterns favour her to head this direction. There is nothing to be gained for her personally by doing anything else.

She is already laughing her head off in glee at the collapse of the NI assembly. It plays right to her agenda.

Under the wheels of the bus go the JAMs, under go the disenfranchised who rarely vote but came out in force for the referendum, under go single mothers, under go the disabled, under go those with mental health concerns who struggle with already bureaucratic systems set up to ‘catch them out’, under go the EU immigrants especially those who have families here and may not have equal rights in future, under go British Citizens living abroad who might find themselves without healthcare or pensions, under go our Human Rights and any chance of challenging the state’s authority and interference in our every day lives, under go small business who will drown in red tape, under go Scotland and NI.

Yet this is ‘for the children’ or ‘the grandchildren’. Its spineless and cynical and offers nothing for those currently able to vote but under the age of 40. Won't you think of the children? Its fine if you are already retired and have a nice little pension isn't it?

The National Interest? This is a foreign concept. Probably an EU one.

The Baby Boomers are net beneficiaries of the welfare state. The young are unlikely to have a welfare state in a few years and are already net contributors. They have now been robbed of the choice over their future and in patronising tones effectively told they are irrelevant.

And of course Uncle Donald is a fan. You can almost see his vampire fangs reading to get his teeth into the UK and suck the life blood out of it.

It is a horror show.

Its all about selling Theresa May to the Express and the Mail and they love it. Her speech is to set the scene of how committed she is and to lay the blame at anyone who challenges her. It attacks the EU and paints them as the aggressor who are there to prevent poor little Britain from getting what it wants. If Brexit goes wrong, it was all an anti-British plot. Not a collective self inflicted brain haemorrhage. She's gone full on Farage and out Farages Farage.

This all comes perhaps a week before the Supreme Court Ruling.

Funny timing eh? No not really.

It’s a pre-emptive strike.

What on earth will they say? Will this merely allow May to dismantle our current legal system by gathering support for a General Election Manifesto that outlines its demise? Thus extending the mandate for Brexit even further. Probably.

I fear that the courts may only serve to strengthen May in the long run due to the lack of opposition and a Labour party that is imploding, with dozens of its MPs being rumoured to be looking for employment elsewhere. I fear that without a media able to effectively hold May to account in the face of her media baron supporters.

Our only hope really lies within the Conservative party itself and whether May is able to keep a lid on the various on going power struggles. The only trouble is that one of those challengers is a certain Brutus in the form of Mr Gove. I struggle to work out who would be worse; Gove or May. And of course this only highlights the issue that who else is there with in the Conservatives who isn’t a reptile? Even Arron Banks commentated that during the referendum he found Labour MPs nice people and the Conservatives unpleasant almost to a man. High praise indeed.

Meanwhile in America, NATO is obsolete and so Europe will have to consider an EU Army and Russia is firmly getting its claws in. And yeah, just Donald Trump. That Project Fear thing was just fake scaremongering wasn't it? Right? Right?

sigh

What on earth can possible stop this insanity? Not necessarily stop Brexit, but at least stop the PURE INSANITY.

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StripeyMonkey1 · 17/01/2017 21:37

I agree Misti. I think Labour should be saying that they will not support a Brexit on this basis and that the referendum provided no mandate for it. If Labour does not support article 50 without single market membership equivalence as a negotiating goal, then surely this would trigger a general election. Is Labour too worried about its political prospects to countenance this? There must be a chance at least of a Lab/Lib/SNP majority in any election vote right now.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 17/01/2017 21:40

I have not seen Labour congratulating themselves on May's speech but I do believe its thought the hard core of Labour is Leave. So....they are in a tricky position.
McDonnell etc always thought of the EU as a capitalist Rich White Mans club, and they still feel this. Confused

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 21:42

David Allen Green is anti-EU in principle (Says he would not have voted to join if he had been old enough to vote when we did). But voted Remain due to the practical difficulties and the implications it had for democracy and law. So reluctant remainer.

He is definitely pro-Leave in some respects.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-trade-deal-us-uk-donald-trump-theresa-may-threat-nhs-environment-food-safety-a7529836.html
Brexit trade deal with US 'puts NHS, environment and food safety all at risk', Theresa May warned

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/01/17/extreme-brexit-this-was-may-s-last-moment-of-control
Ian Dunt don't like Extreme Brexit...

A pretty unflattering view. That I pretty much agree wit unfortunately.

It would be nice to be proved wrong...

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RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 21:44

Law and policy ‏*@Law*andpolicy
Fwiw, I think May's speech should be welcomed: wise to set out openly what HMG wants at an early stage. Openness will be key to any Brexit.

My greatest issue with approach so far to Brexit was idiotic "not show cards" secrecy.

More openness, better chance of workable Brexit.

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Suppermummy02 · 17/01/2017 21:45

*The EU wasn't working for us so we are leaving.

"us" being The Sun, Daily Mail and a handful off Tories, not 65 million people.*

Nope, us being the majority of the electorate.

Peregrina Your looking for concrete answers, in case you hadn't realized they have to be negotiated with the EU. None of your questions can be answered until then, so your denigration of TM because she doesn't have concrete answers is misplaced.

FOM means EU citizens - not anyone who happens to be in the EU - can come to the UK provided they don't fail on certain conditions and can financially support themselves. We have the rights to remove them if they cannot self support

face palm< and its that kind of simplistic denial that has caused Brexit because its pretty self evident that millions of them do come here.

whatwouldrondo Yes I do think businesses spend money on contingency plans, at least the good ones do. Its not about calling any ones bluff, its about applying pressure to get the outcome you want. That does not mean a business wont flourish otherwise, it means business doesn't like change. Our economy will be better off with business that stays in one place and pay taxes, we cant be ruled by these global companies that threaten to move if we dont do what they demand.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/01/2017 21:49

Our economy will be better off with business that stays in one place and pay taxes

You do realise Brexit Britain will likely be a tax haven? A Cayman Islands but with shit weather.

Suppermummy02 · 17/01/2017 21:52

I think Labour should be saying that they will not support a Brexit on this basis and that the referendum provided no mandate for it
The problem being that most Labour MPs are in seats that voted Brexit. So resisting A50 would lose them a LOT of seats.

Mistigri · 17/01/2017 21:53

I have not seen Labour congratulating themselves on May's speech but I do believe its thought the hard core of Labour is Leave. So....they are in a tricky position.

Most Labour MPs are (or were) remain, as were over two thirds of those who voted labour at the last election.

Suppermummy02 · 17/01/2017 21:56

You do realise Brexit Britain will likely be a tax haven? A Cayman Islands but with shit weather You mean like Ireland, who are a part of the EU?

woman12345 · 17/01/2017 21:57

Although the early years of Blair were not all bad.

Don't want to get side tracked, but Labour's current breakdown, is in part due to the story that Blair was a Bliar. I just don't think this is the case. And I rather wonder where all that propaganda came from.

Post 9/11 the atmosphere was febrile. Parliament voted on the war, and the evidence was wrong, but it was a collective decision.

The Blair administration, from memory achieved or presided over;
tax credits(people seem to think they have always been around); free school fruit; massive increase in funding for schools and hospitals; children's and family centres; completed (started by Major) Good Friday agreement; Mac Pherson report into Stephen Lawrence enquiry; legal aid still existed; peace; college fees introduced bad, but at a tolerable level; more women MPs than ever before; employment law still protected workers; no zero hours contracts; domestic peace; freedom of expression. It was not a bad administration, and the myth that he is whatever bad things people say, I don't agree with. And there were some storming front benchers,(Cook, Mowlam, Brown etc) If Clegg had leant the other way in 2010 he would have formed a lib/lab coalition, and the promise for the referendum wouldn't have been made.............

I think part of re building a working opposition, is being fair at least about what old/new labour did: although not enough, many, many missed chances to make real lasting change. This is a conservative country, and they won on Blair being the home counties darling, not a fire brand. They would not have won 3 terms without him.

So not wanting to go down a Labour rabbit hole, but it's because the middle and moderately left wing Labour have lost all confidence and power that we are stuck with this apparently absolutely impotent opposition.

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 21:59

Ok the EU wasn't working. I can accept that as an argument.

What I can't accept is we should just leave without a clear alternative on the table so we can then weigh up whether the electorate think this alternative is preferable to what we have just rejected.

Just because we don't like something doesn't mean the next thing that comes along will be better. It could be considerably worse for everyone.

That logic is flawed.

No deal will be perfect. There will be compromise. I would like to know what the compromise is before we agree to it. Trade requires a surrender of some sovereignty. This is something we will learn one way or another. I would rather it wasn't the hard way.

The whole thing is insane because of the way it has been carried out.

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ElenaGreco123 · 17/01/2017 22:02

So how do we think Nissan react? The government has clearly withdrawn their rumoured commitment to the single market. That must have been the reason the Nissan CEO was at 10 Downing Street a few days ago.
My guess would be the Japanese will quietly deprioritise Sunderland, not give new models to them and see what happens.

I have not been to pub for quite a while. It is wild on that thread.

HashiAsLarry · 17/01/2017 22:02

and its that kind of simplistic denial that has caused Brexit because its pretty self evident that millions of them do come here.
Yes, EU citizens come here legally under the said terms of the EU treaties. Non EU citizens come here under own own terms. There are more non EU than EU coming in. If an American citizen comes in from France they are treated by their citizenship - i.e. non EU. Simplistic denial comes in when people start falsely claiming that there are open door EU policies that allow anyone in and we have no rights to stop them - because you can't blame immigration when you realise our own government could have done a lot to solve the apparent immigration crisis.

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 22:02

One of her problems by saying that 65 million people support her, is that a significant number of the 16 million who didn't have had their backs put up completely and intend to fight all the way. We are not all turncoats as she is.

Mistigri · 17/01/2017 22:07

If Labour does not support article 50 without single market membership equivalence as a negotiating goal, then surely this would trigger a general election. Is Labour too worried about its political prospects to countenance this? There must be a chance at least of a Lab/Lib/SNP majority in any election vote right now.

I genuinely don't understand the Labour strategy, if there is one. Ben Bradshaw MP for Exeter has been tweeting plaintively all day trying to find out if any Labour members or supporters understand Labour's position. People keep saying it's "clear" - but are remarkably reluctant to explain it in plain language.

Electorally, I cannot see the sense of alienating the educated centre left - people who turn out and vote reliably. These people are abandoning the Labour Party in droves, some for the wilderness, some for the LDs. I'm not sure when it became electoral received wisdom that labour can win elections by trampling over two thirds of its own voters in its haste to out-kipper Ukip.

mybrainhurtsalot · 17/01/2017 22:07

I think it's my first post on these threads, but I've been an avid reader from the start. Thank you to all the contributors Flowers

Absolutely, Woman, there's a very interesting LSE report on the Blair /Brown outcomes

SwedishEdith · 17/01/2017 22:10

I kind of think there are 2 Labour parties - Corbyn's, who everyone is ignoring, and the emerging Starmer one. Does Starmer ever actually reference Corbyn?

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 22:10

None of your questions can be answered until then, so your denigration of TM because she doesn't have concrete answers is misplaced.

My denigration of May is not to do with her not having concrete answers - it's because of her nasty self-serving behaviour. She showed her colours as Home Secretary and is now behaving like a petty dictator.

user1484653592 · 17/01/2017 22:13

'I think the EU are just pissed off we are standing up for ourselves instead of doing what we are told and accepting whatever crumbs they threw our way.' Do you really and actually believe this narrative myth? Confused

You, my fellow MNetter, have fallen for a fairly unsophisticated, yet compelling in it's make belief simplicity fairy tale, spun by self serving right wing propaganda. We were very well of in the EU with all its faults. The Eu sure could be improved and there are some sleeze balls who we could definitely do without but Britain never had a chance to reform or improve the EU or further our interests with the muppety UKIP MEPs, bigots, thugs and chauvinists the lot who have no moral problem being paid for jobs that they actually do not do. You have fallen for a big lie i'm afraid supermummy

Suppermummy02 · 17/01/2017 22:14

RedToothBrush

I think it dangerous to put blind trust into politicians ... As are the attempts to undermine the rule of law

Who is trying to undermine the law, everyone seems to be following the law as the supreme court is involved to decide.

persuade people. Don't tell them to shut up, call them patronizing or subverting the will of the people
Sorry who is subverting the will of the people?

Positive Brexit is about more than believing
Actually it does involve some belief as the future is not certain, and the majority of the electorate think we will be better off leaving the EU.

Its about demonstrating how it will actually work in practice
And we wont know that until after the negotiations.

these questions need to be answered and its unacceptable for them to be wrapped up in secrecy because its a game of poker
It is real peoples lives but they are secret because we DONT KNOW the answers until after the negotiations. Which like it or not are like a game of poker.

just because people vote for X in a manifesto doesn't mean that proposal will and should become law
I agree somewhat however referendums are different, politicians couldn't decide so they asked the people who then decided.

Suppermummy02 · 17/01/2017 22:16

What I can't accept is we should just leave without a clear alternative on the table

That would be nice but the EU specifically bans its members from making trade deals with other countries, so how would it be possible to to put a clear alternative on the table?

Mistigri · 17/01/2017 22:16

I kind of think there are 2 Labour parties - Corbyn's, who everyone is ignoring, and the emerging Starmer one. Does Starmer ever actually reference Corbyn?

Starmer's playing a different game to Corbyn but the results are the same - a brexit policy vacuum. I'm hugely disappointed in him :(

Peregrina · 17/01/2017 22:17

Woman12345 I agree with much of what you say about Blair. A problem for many politicians is that their careers tend to end in failure and they are remembered for that. As far as I am aware both Chamberlain and Eden were perfectly competent and well regarded politicians but that got wiped out with Appeasement/Suez. The same with Blair - if he had not supported the Iraq war he would have been remembered for the Good Friday agreement, even though Major did much of the leg work, and gone down as a Peacemaker instead of a warmonger.

Suppermummy02 · 17/01/2017 22:18

Just because we don't like something doesn't mean the next thing that comes along will be better. It could be considerably worse for everyone

Agreed but we have been been in the EU for a long time and it only seems to get worse and worse. I think we reached a critical mass where a majority thought it was getting so bad, anything would be better and it was worth the risk to find out.

Mistigri · 17/01/2017 22:19

We should stop rehashing the same old arguments with people who aren't interested in an exchange of views.

Surprised that we are not talking about Chelsea Manning. What does this mean for Snowden, and for Assange? I believe that Assange has said that if Manning was released, he would no longer fight extradition to the US.