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Brexit

Westministers: Boris and May give us the Brexit Leeming Plan.

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2017 15:17

Theresa May has made a speech.

It’s a wish list for hard core Brexiteers. It’s a large corporate executive’s wet dream for exploitation.

Even requests for a white paper as recommended by the Brexit Committee have been ignored. Thus meaning there is no chance for proper scrutiny. Plus whilst on the one hand parliament have been told they will have a vote on the end deal, this is merely slight of hand, with Davis stating that if parliament vote against this, then we will leave the EU without a deal in a chaotic exit. Thus making the vote an exercise with a gun to parliament's head.

Workers Rights and the Welfare State die with Brexit. Even the precious NHS. Especially the precious NHS once its been stole off to the highest American bidder.

May is being lobbied by her hard right and to save her next she listens only to them. She has no interest in listening to anyone else. The demographic and voting patterns favour her to head this direction. There is nothing to be gained for her personally by doing anything else.

She is already laughing her head off in glee at the collapse of the NI assembly. It plays right to her agenda.

Under the wheels of the bus go the JAMs, under go the disenfranchised who rarely vote but came out in force for the referendum, under go single mothers, under go the disabled, under go those with mental health concerns who struggle with already bureaucratic systems set up to ‘catch them out’, under go the EU immigrants especially those who have families here and may not have equal rights in future, under go British Citizens living abroad who might find themselves without healthcare or pensions, under go our Human Rights and any chance of challenging the state’s authority and interference in our every day lives, under go small business who will drown in red tape, under go Scotland and NI.

Yet this is ‘for the children’ or ‘the grandchildren’. Its spineless and cynical and offers nothing for those currently able to vote but under the age of 40. Won't you think of the children? Its fine if you are already retired and have a nice little pension isn't it?

The National Interest? This is a foreign concept. Probably an EU one.

The Baby Boomers are net beneficiaries of the welfare state. The young are unlikely to have a welfare state in a few years and are already net contributors. They have now been robbed of the choice over their future and in patronising tones effectively told they are irrelevant.

And of course Uncle Donald is a fan. You can almost see his vampire fangs reading to get his teeth into the UK and suck the life blood out of it.

It is a horror show.

Its all about selling Theresa May to the Express and the Mail and they love it. Her speech is to set the scene of how committed she is and to lay the blame at anyone who challenges her. It attacks the EU and paints them as the aggressor who are there to prevent poor little Britain from getting what it wants. If Brexit goes wrong, it was all an anti-British plot. Not a collective self inflicted brain haemorrhage. She's gone full on Farage and out Farages Farage.

This all comes perhaps a week before the Supreme Court Ruling.

Funny timing eh? No not really.

It’s a pre-emptive strike.

What on earth will they say? Will this merely allow May to dismantle our current legal system by gathering support for a General Election Manifesto that outlines its demise? Thus extending the mandate for Brexit even further. Probably.

I fear that the courts may only serve to strengthen May in the long run due to the lack of opposition and a Labour party that is imploding, with dozens of its MPs being rumoured to be looking for employment elsewhere. I fear that without a media able to effectively hold May to account in the face of her media baron supporters.

Our only hope really lies within the Conservative party itself and whether May is able to keep a lid on the various on going power struggles. The only trouble is that one of those challengers is a certain Brutus in the form of Mr Gove. I struggle to work out who would be worse; Gove or May. And of course this only highlights the issue that who else is there with in the Conservatives who isn’t a reptile? Even Arron Banks commentated that during the referendum he found Labour MPs nice people and the Conservatives unpleasant almost to a man. High praise indeed.

Meanwhile in America, NATO is obsolete and so Europe will have to consider an EU Army and Russia is firmly getting its claws in. And yeah, just Donald Trump. That Project Fear thing was just fake scaremongering wasn't it? Right? Right?

sigh

What on earth can possible stop this insanity? Not necessarily stop Brexit, but at least stop the PURE INSANITY.

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whatwouldrondo · 20/01/2017 10:04

People who work for global banks are used to moving, and these days even moves to Hong Kong and Singapore tend to be on local rather than expat packages unless you really do have rare skill sets, swanning off with rent paid for a swish flat with a debenture for an International school place all fees paid is pretty rare . I haven't heard of any examples of these firms demanding EU passport holders, they are more globally minded than that, used to moves to New York, Hong Kong, Zurich, and the focus is on the skill set. However with my much more limited exposure to the Science community it seems to be far more common for jobs to be dependent on an EU passport in the pharma etc industries. Makes sense I suppose if EU funding is a big factor in your strategy.

whatwouldrondo · 20/01/2017 10:08

missmoon Even back office staff in the banks are well paid by most local standards. Ok so you might have to go and live in Connecticut or in the New Territories and commute in to New York or Hong Kong island like any local but it is still an attractive enough prospect for people, including families to be doing it. Brexit has made that even truer than it already was.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 10:10

Christian Odendahl ‏*@COdendahl*
Obama handing over the world to Merkel.

His last call was to her...

It choked me.

Westministers: Boris and May give us the Brexit Leeming Plan.
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Peregrina · 20/01/2017 10:11

Tory MP Philip Hollobone: Poor households could learn about eating healthy food on a budget from wartime generation

Let's see him set an example.
I remember the then politician Matthew Parris saying that it was possible to live on the dole and trying for a week, which was televised. He ran out of money before the week was up. I wasn't surprised when he quit politics shortly after.

SemiPermanent · 20/01/2017 10:11

I was asking the question re the EU risking peace for principle wrt the hypothetical situation of a reunifying Ireland, not Brexit ref & WM.

A Hong Kong style solution is the way forward with the UK subsidising for a prolonged transition.

Burnt, that's the sort of scenario I meant.

Wrt EU ref in NI, obviously a clear majority favoured EU membership; of the Leave voters, can it be assumed that they were a mix of a few republicans trying to stir the pot, with a majority of unionists?

The reason I'm asking is because that would indicate the ratio of people who put EU above union, compared to union above EU.

Presuming then that a minority of unionists place the union over all else, these are the blocks to re-unification?
So a couple of hundred thousand people are in effect dictating the future of Britain and Ireland & NI as a whole (as an island that will be heavily affected by Brexit)?

And also, what is ROI's feeling in all this?
Is reunification desirable or not? Would it be acceptable if prolonged transition subsidy from UK?

Can the idea of reunification ever be made palatable to the hardcore of unionists?
If so, how? Is continued British citizenship & CTA enough?

HashiAsLarry · 20/01/2017 10:14

smurfs I don't think collapse was inevitable. Getting into a really really shitty state however is still very much in the cards.

The economists I believed more than anyone though were the pro leave ones. They told us the terms in which brexit would be possible without ruining ourselves. They told us the cost of that was to make our market more free. What a lot of people didn't understand was that wasn't free in terms of trade, it was free in terms of regulation. They were actually saying to make a financial success of brexit we need to become what TM is now pushing for, with an added wave goodbye to the NHS bonus. People are now acting shocked Confused

lurkinghusband · 20/01/2017 10:18

Obama handing over the world to Merkel.

There is a very pointed point in that - not that anyone in the UK will be told that ...

whatwouldrondo · 20/01/2017 10:18

It just highlights how irrelevant May's "citizen of nowhere" rhetoric was to those who are young or work in global environments. Most young people these days, from all sorts of backgrounds, do aspire to travel. I have relatives who left school at 16 with no qualifications who have had a gap year in Asia and Australia /New Zealand and /or have moved permanently within and outside the EU. Being asked to move to Paris or Frankfurt or Hong Kong and live like a reasonably well off local rather than wealthy expat is still regarded as an adventure and opportunity not a hardship. The changes happening in post Brexit Britain are alienating people who have no problem with being citizens of nowhere even before jobs become harder to get in the UK.

TuckersBadLuck · 20/01/2017 10:21

of the Leave voters, can it be assumed that they were a mix of a few republicans trying to stir the pot, with a majority of unionists?

66% of Unionists voted Leave and 12% of Nationalists. 30% of people identifying as neither.

Source:

www.qub.ac.uk/home/EUReferendum/Brexitfilestore/Filetoupload,728121,en.pdf

Peregrina · 20/01/2017 10:22

May could avoid many of the problems by being in the EEA - yes the UK will still pay, and have no say in laws, but it solves many problems, but not all.

It would ease the NI/RoI question - no hard border would be necessary.
It wouldn't help with those areas which have had heavy EU investment, so Cornwall, NI, Cumbria, you are out of luck there.

Will May and the Tory headbanger see any sense? I doubt it.

Lico · 20/01/2017 10:31

For info (also posted on Aibu thread)

On Wednesday, Anne-Laure Donskoy and I (the two co-chairs of the3million) were invited by Parliament to present a series of evidence to the MPs who are members of the Brexit Select Committee.

These questions ranged from the impact of Brexit on EU citizens to the burdensome application process for obtaining Permanent Residence (PR) and our request to have our rights granted unilaterally.

the3million.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=9c20dec826b5110f3a7f5e9bc&id=30e1162d4e&e=bb7e8f8777
You can watch the full 75 minutes at the3million.us13.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=9c20dec826b5110f3a7f5e9bc&id=982c803fc7&e=bb7e8f8777

Despite the provocations of Peter Lilley MP (you can hear the audio clip from the BBC's Today programme (the3million.us13.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=9c20dec826b5110f3a7f5e9bc&id=6e4397b96e&e=bb7e8f8777) at 47min 30sec), the session went well as the case for EU citizens was made and we hope that the members of the Select Committee will take home these three key messages:

  1. The rights of EU citizens must be unilaterally granted by the British Government on the basis that the 3 million EU citizens living in the country came in good faith and their suffering caused the current uncertainty must stop.
  1. The PR process must be reformed to allow the registration of every single 3 million EU citizens by the Home Office, including the removal of the requirement for Comprehensive Sickness Insurance (since the access to healthcare through the NHS is sufficient to be interpreted as cover) and discriminations based on non-economic activities (for example, carers who are contributing to society in a social manner). Anne-Laure's five-kilogram partial dossier will be remembered.
  1. Finally, the Government must think of the future status of EU citizens who currently live here and offer them a protection in law to replicate the current protective status they are currently enjoying.

The reactions in our social media channels were very positive and it was a well needed break through for the 3 million EU citizens who have been suffering since the referendum without much interest from the media or the politicians.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 10:35

Richard Wyn Jones ‏*@RWynJones*

Good day to remind ourselves that 90% of Welsh agricultural exports go to the EU and that 80% of farm income comes from the CAP...

fullfact.org/europe/what-happens-if-parliament-rejects-brexit-deal/
Deal or No Deal. What happens if we reject May's Deal?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/19/brussels-tough-wait-corporate-america-writes-the-rules?CMP=twt_gu
If you thought Brussels was tough, wait until corporate America writes the rules

The ‘brave new world of free trade’ envisaged by Liam Fox could undermine our legal system, add to the NHS’s woes and set back City regulation for years

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/20/britain-eu-politics-gibraltar-gambling-tax-brexit?CMP=twt_gu
Gambling tax blow as Gibraltar is deemed 'one entity' with UK

Case could have wider implications for Mediterranean outcrop, which has been mulling ways of staying in crucial single market

order-order.com/2017/01/20/labours-copeland-candidate-is-arch-remainer/
Labour select 'Arch Remainer' in Copeland

www.wsj.com/articles/britains-pound-depreciation-isnt-working-1484859707
Britain’s Pound Depreciation Isn’t Working
Manufacturing has proved immune to currency stimulus. But imports keep going up, up, up.

Exports will pick up meaningfully only when new firms enter the market to compete with and undercut existing exporters. But uncertainty about the Brexit process likely means that this will be a slow and tentative process. Who would invest to export now, when Prime Minister Theresa May threatens to fall back on World Trade Organization rules for trade with Europe if her Brexit demands aren’t met? Without preferential access to Europe’s single market, Britain’s exports to the European Union would be subject to tariffs averaging 5% and burdensome customs checks.

THIS ESSENTIAL READING. It highlights a lot of problems not just the one above including the general weakness of our manufacturing sector.

Simon Tilford @SimonTilford
The country Britain most resembles at present is Russia: narcissistic & deluded about its own importance. And determined to be friendless.

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Peregrina · 20/01/2017 10:35

I have relatives who left school at 16 with no qualifications who have had a gap year in Asia and Australia /New Zealand and /or have moved permanently within and outside the EU.

Mine too. Their outlook is completely different from my generation, and I have been surprised at the change. Girls of my generation, if they left school without qualifications, would almost inevitably have been married with at least one child by 20. The younger generation now, and not just the ones who come from the prosperous south east, are much more open and adventurous. Some of those feel extremely strongly about Brexit.

whatwouldrondo · 20/01/2017 10:39

The majority in Northern Ireland voted against Brexit because the EU was good for Northern Ireland not because they want reunification. I have very close friends there who have worked tirelessly against sectarianism, helped found integrated schools etc. They do not feel reunification would be good for Northern Ireland because , aside from other economic and political factors, it would entrench still further the religious sectarianism that exists in both the Catholic and Protestant communities. All of Northern Ireland's difficulties are rooted in sectarianism. The flag flying, marching mentality, as well as the paramilitaries were all manifestations of the religious divide. The GFA may have been a sticking plaster but it was giving time to the forces that were trying to heal the sectarian divide, and bring about a more secular society.

This is not Hong Kong where the vast majority could live with one country two systems as long as their system was protected, Hong Kong was not devided except in the sense that there were three groups, those who had long histories in British Hong Kong (and British dependent territory passports), those who were regional migrants, still with very active networks in Guangdong and those who had fled the political upheavals on the mainland. All those groups were united in wanting a maintenance of stability and the status quo. Those taking to the street in both the post Tiannanmen rallies and the umbrella marches were not marching as a result of divisions in Hong Kong but against changes to their status quo.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 10:43

John Wreford @JohnWreford
Is there a Santa tracker equivalent for the Four Horsemen

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Peregrina · 20/01/2017 10:48

I feel it's a sad commentary on some of our politicians - yes I am thinking of you May, Johnson, Davis, Gove, Redwood to name a few - when we have to turn to internet forums to read sensible reasoned posts like Ron's of 10:39, but when they open their mouths all that comes out is rubbish.

whatwouldrondo · 20/01/2017 10:56

If like semi permanent you have not experienced life there at first or second hand life there it is probably difficult to appreciate the depths of sectarianism and the sometimes seemingly ridiculous impact it can have on daily life. Where else in the U.K. would the National Trust put up alongside the scientific theories about the formation of one of their major attractions, the creationist view? Where else would there be a government document about schools with Gaelic and Scots Gaelic translations, with the proposed Scots Gaelic translation of SEN as "wee dafty bairns"? However ridiculous as these may seem, these are all efforts to make sure both sides feel validated and part of a shared Northern Ireland.

TuckersBadLuck · 20/01/2017 11:04

Gaelic and Ulster-Scots, rather than Gaelic and Scots Gaelic surely?

Scotland does the same thing.

whatwouldrondo · 20/01/2017 11:11

Sorry, yes Ulster Scots, I am not a Stormont civil servant!

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 11:11

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38689400?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
Labour MPs could vote against leadership on Brexit

However, a senior Labour source has told the BBC between 60 and 80 of the party's MPs might be ready to defy the leadership if there is a vote in Parliament.

26 rebelled in Dec on the vote in principle about a50.

Another Labour MP told the BBC there would be a "swathe" of resignations from the front bench if Mr Corbyn instructed his MPs to vote for Brexit.

Again?!

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TheSmurfsAreHere · 20/01/2017 11:17

Lico
On Wednesday, Anne-Laure Donskoy and I (the two co-chairs of the3million) were invited by Parliament to present a series of evidence to the MPs who are members of the Brexit Select Committee

THANK AND THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE WORK YOU ARE DOING HERE.
FlowersFlowersFlowers

PattyPenguin · 20/01/2017 11:20

"the wee dafty bairns" isn't from a Scots Gaelic translation, it's from a "Scots" translation.

Scots Gaelic is a Celtic language related closely to Irish, as it was taken to Scotland by immigrants from, ironically, north eastern Ireland in the 4th/5th centuries AD.

"Scots" is a Scottish dialect of English, originally brought to Ulster by immigrants from Scotland from the 17th century onwards.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2017 11:30

www.independent.co.uk/voices/donald-trump-inauguration-president-psychological-tricks-language-twitter-tweets-convince-americans-a7536866.html
The psychological language tricks Donald Trump used to convince Americans to vote him in as president

Notness.
Learn. Its here too.

www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/donald-trump-obama-pardon
How Donald Trump's troll supporters silence dissent

Learn. Its here too.

Richard Osman ‏*@richardosman*
Trump's inauguration starts at 5.
Pointless starts at 5.15.

Your choice.

I think there is potential for a MN Pointless Thread later today...

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Burntcustard · 20/01/2017 11:47

Whatwouldrondo - I agree that the sectarianism in NI is deep-rooted. My family have worked hard against it and indeed my dad is an Alliance voter and in despair that they get such a low share of the vote.

However, I think the sectarianism is a consequence of the existence of NI as without entrenched and continually reinforced hard Unionism, NI would cease to exist.

Under the EU there was a chance that it would wither away as the EU made the border become irrelevant and allowed people to freely choose whichever passport and identity they wanted. A hard Brexit means that the Irish identity is not being respected or acknowledged and frankly I find it quite shocking that two-thirds of Unionists could vote for such a thing. If the outcome of Brexit is that the customs border becomes the Irish sea then that would be karma.

Burntcustard · 20/01/2017 11:50

For anyone interested in Ulster Scots...

www.bbc.co.uk/ulsterscots/learn/lesson/1

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