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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Motheroffourdragons · 11/12/2016 09:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

borntobequiet · 11/12/2016 09:14

Not EU referendum but relevant to some Trump discussions on here and previous threads:
www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-anthony-cooper/russia-stole-the-presiden_b_13546074.html

RedToothBrush · 11/12/2016 09:18

Quite.

Sorry I sound miserable but Theresa May's wipe clean trousers are only note worthy for making her look elite and out of touch and I'm not sure that really that needs pointing out.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 11/12/2016 09:24

Daniel Hannan on Russia and elections:

Daniel Hannan‏ @DanielJHannan
If it really is true that Russia intervened in the U.S. election, isn't it the biggest scandal of the decade? Why such equanimity?

What is he expecting? (Obviously nothing, he wrote an article explaining why he is "warming to trump")

The news coming from the US is chilling, but what practical options do his opponents have?

Trump is doing all this without a popular mandate.

Peregrina · 11/12/2016 09:27

If she went round saying 'I'm a woman of the people',
Her response was words to the effect that she went round listening to people, which is effectively trying to be one of the people. Misti summed it up in the 07:10 post. No one criticised her for her Vivienne Westwood suit, which was equally expensive. It is more comparable to a man's suit and has already had a few outings.

I don't think anyone comments on 'Mutti' Merkel's attire - functional suits which keep her warm and decent, while she gets on with the job of running the country.

merrymouse · 11/12/2016 09:30

mobile.twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/807874289668132864

Theresa May might call snap election if loses court case - but why??? Have I missed something? Wouldn't she just get parliament to pass a bill. Could you even call an election in these circumstances? Is this just DM stirring?

Castelnaumansions · 11/12/2016 09:39

Red, I'm with you on the fear. It's visceral. US friends are passing round messages of compassion on FB, to get through each day. Here, the mud slinging and viciousness are so part of everyday British discourse, that no one seems to be seeing the attack on democracy in plain sight.
'And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?' Irishman,Yeats had it covered.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 11/12/2016 09:48

Those who pretend to be "men of the people" when they are millionaires who 'hate the low-grades' should be criticized and shown up for it.

But, I don't think the answer to our problems is for politicians and/or wealthy/privileged people to pretend they are not wealthy/educated people when they absolutely are. That really would be playing to the gallery/mob/elite-bashing.

I don't need my leaders to wear New Look trackies. I need them to be good leaders: that's where she is going wrong.

Peregrina · 11/12/2016 09:48

I am not sure that TM can call a snap election anymore. I imagine that she could engineer a vote of No Confidence and whip her party into voting her down, which would be very cynical. I think they partly lost Richmond Park because of their cynical stance of not putting up a Tory candidate.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 11/12/2016 09:52

Re. The US - There was already a lot of fear about a huge angry backlash against minorities and women if Clinton won against Trump.

The idea that Trump could be prevented from being president at this stage - and what his supporters would then do - fills many people with absolute terror.

Castelnaumansions · 11/12/2016 09:53

And, on 'rough beasts' Google enables holocaust deniers.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/11/google-frames-shapes-and-distorts-how-we-see-world
'Google is still quietly pretending there’s nothing wrong, while surreptitiously going in and fixing the most egregious examples we published last week. It refused to comment on the search results I found – such as the autocomplete suggestion that “jews are evil”, with eight of its 10 top results confirming they are –'
'This is hate speech. It’s lies. It’s racist propaganda. And Google is disseminating it. It is what the data scientist Cathy O’Neil calls a “co-conspirator”. And so are we. Because what happens next is entirely down to us. This is our internet. And we need to make a decision: do we believe it’s acceptable to spread hate speech, to promulgate lies as the world becomes a darker, murkier place?
Because Google is only beyond the reach of the law if it we allow it to be. It’s selling ads against these searches. It’s profiting from Holocaust denial. Its algorithm is helping Stormfront reach new recruits – the next generation of Thomas Mairs and Breiviks – all the while adding to its bottom line, its quarterly profits. This week, Chi Onwurah, the shadow secretary of state for culture, media and sport tweeted her concern about the subject but noted “I’m sure @google will argue they aren’t responsible for the results”

merrymouse · 11/12/2016 09:59

Its not the trousers that are the problem. The problem is not listening to people because they aren't prepared to follow the party line on trousers.

whatwouldrondo · 11/12/2016 10:00

The CIA report landing on his desk before the end of his presidency has me wondering if Obama is up to something, only a few days to go but he could still put wheels in motion that will impact on Trumps presidency. I still firmly believe, in fact now more than ever, that the Trump Presidency will not go four years without being ended by scandal, impeachment or mental illness.

May's leather trousers are in her usual style, like the kitten heels, the Vivienne Westwood label, and the hints of cleavage, she likes to think of herself as a bit of a minx, a daring fashion maverick. Hence her response. Unfortunately being a Home Counties vicars daughter her idea of maverick is as others have said is actually just standard wealthy Maidenhead matron. She is out of touch.

merrymouse · 11/12/2016 10:04

The idea that Trump could be prevented from being president at this stage - and what his supporters would then do - fills many people with absolute terror.

I agree. There is also the problem that even if Clinton had won, it is unlikely that the democrats would have been able to win a 4th consecutive term in 2020, and Trump's supporters weren't going anywhere.

The problem isn't just Trump and he isn't the only scary politician in America.

HesterThrale · 11/12/2016 10:05

I'm unsure how long Trump can last before something from his past or personality exposes him as grossly unsuitable.
Apparently just after the election he shut down four of his companies which had ties to Saudi.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/09/donald-trump-closes-companies-after-election-saudi-arabia

The question won't be, SHOULD Americans take action? It'll be, CAN they?

Mistigri · 11/12/2016 10:08

I don't care what TM wears and in fact I'm quite in favour of the idea that women in positions of influence should wear what they want and what they feel comfortable in (within the limits of reason and proprietry, and as long as we apply this even-handedly: no more sniping at Corbyn for his fashion sense).

Nevertheless, when you are in a position of high power and influence, there's no escaping the fact that what you choose to wear may be taken to convey a message. I'm not sure that wearing a fashion item associated with "rich people behaving badly" shows very good judgement right now. I hope that was Morgan's point.

Mistigri · 11/12/2016 10:12

Re Trump maybe we need a separate RTB thread in the politics section? I tend to avoid discussing American politics in here because it's a bit off topic but I would happily debate it in another thread (as long as it doesn't get derailed by Mumsnet's very own Trump fangirl, which I concede is probably why we're talking about him here instead).

whatwouldrondo · 11/12/2016 10:18

merry I heard a democrat analyst say, when it still looked as though Clinton would win, that the real anxiety was not Trump, who was so manifestly unsuited to Presidency, but that in future somebody who was actually clever and charismatic would come along and exploit the political forces that had been unleashed.

I have two friends who were working as producers for the media coverage of Trump's rallies in Florida, one for a UK company, one for a US channel. They both commented on how sparse the attendances actually were, and that whilst he was commenting on how many people were there, how many black and Hispanic people had attended the evidence to the contrary was in front of their eyes. Trump focused the crowd on one enemy though, them. An Obama rally in Florida was a complete contrast, he was a star attraction. I wonder if whilst people voted against the status quo, and for all the political forces that were unleashed, they did not vote FOR Trump.

HesterThrale · 11/12/2016 10:33

Misti I see what you're saying about a separate thread for Trump, but I think the two are connected. Movements coming from a similar groundswell. (Or is that what NF would have us believe?). How this all turns out in the UK and the US is likely to be different though: they are very differing cultures after all.

cordelia12345 · 11/12/2016 10:49

I disagree, Hester. We're effectively a military base for US. UK workforce has been subject to zero hours and mc jobs like US and unlike Europe.
Both countries have been victims of a seizure of power( UK by referendum with no constitutional status, US by election based on lies and threats of violence, and possible election corruption) by extreme right. Both are now controlled by racists (May's record as home secretary, UKIP's political power over conservative party, Trump's statements and racist appointments). Both countries are finding their constitutional checks and balances creaking under the strain of trying to ensure democracy is sustained. Both countries have had 'liberal' female politicians shot by right wing extremists. In England, fatally.
The main alleged difference is the proliferation of legal fire arms in US.

whatwouldrondo · 11/12/2016 10:56

May, the stubborn, out of touch Maidenhead matron www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/11/nick-cohen-theresa-may-interview-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Castelnaumansions · 11/12/2016 11:01

What's lurking under 'leather trouser gate'?
Robbie Gibb ‏@RobbieGibb

“There's a lot of people who think she's [Nicky Morgn] taking side-swipes at the government & at Theresa May
Robbie Gibb ‏@RobbieGibb

Adam Stares (Dep Chair Loughborough Conservatives) “I have no idea what she's [Nicky Morgan] playing at…”
Robbie Gibb ‏@RobbieGibb

Nicky Morgan “I'm having emails from people around the country… saying thank you for what you're doing ...

Castelnaumansions · 11/12/2016 11:04

and this! Grin
Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick Dec 8
House of Commons authorities offering loans of up to £1,500, post-Referendum, to help foreign Commons staff apply for U.K. Citizenship

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 11/12/2016 11:05

I dont think TM is out of touch at all - she is very in touch.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2016 11:09

I think that although these threads concentrate on Brexit & the change in UK politics, we can only make sense of it all as part of a massive politicial shift throughout the industrialised world:

Many of those losing out to globalisation, or afraid of its effects on their country, are turning away from liberal democracy and towards fascist authoritarianism

So our discussion of why Brexit is happening, what direction it should go and why the far right have risen, are helped by some discussion of similar political trends in the USA, France, Germany, Eastern Europe.

Also realising how Putin in Russia - which did a 180 turn from communism to fasciam - is taking advantage of popular anger against Islamic extremism to fan the flames of fascism worldwide.

So, these threads aren't going off track by discussing politics in other countries, but helping to understand the UK political situation in the context of global trends.