Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:03

Its twelve days to go until the end of the HoC 2016 calendar and we can already tell that everyone is wishing it was Christmas already. Poor Theresa though, she doesn’t get to play with toys on the last day of term. Instead she has a grilling on the lack of spending on health and social care spending by a commons select committee.

Hopefully the next couple of weeks will calm down a little though as thoughts turn elsewhere.

The A50 case has come to an end. There is no way of telling which way the judges will go but the decision to appeal may yet haunt the government as it will bring the issue of devolution to a head, whether they win or lose. The ruling is due in mid January.

Win and they are going to have to amend the Devolution Acts and potentially impose Brexit on people with certain national identities who voted against it. This is profoundly undemocratic and a betrayal of the principles of Devolution and the expectations of the will of the people.
Lose and they could face a full blown constitutional crisis, with NI or Scotland or both having a veto over Brexit, and the government effectively unable to trigger a50 in line with our constitutional requirement. Which is again, potentially profoundly undemocratic and against the referendum and the expectations of the will of the people.

It was a scenario that predictable and avoidable at several junctions yet the government under Cameron and May ploughed on regardless. It a scenario that we are now locked into, due to deciding to use the courts rather than just go through parliament.

It could also massively restrict the power of the executive under the Royal Prerogative. Ironically this is something that David Davis has campaigned for, for years so I guess he gets a victory however the decision goes.
So the chances of some kind of crisis with regard to our constitutional makeup and the union seem inevitable in the new year.

The government despite a defeat in Richmond Park continues to lean right and characterise anyone with concerns as unpatriotic or not honourable. This is the last resort of the desperate.

They have however, conceded to Labour that they will publish a report on their Brexit plans before a50 is triggered. In return Labour have promised that they will let a50 be triggered by the end of March. Is this a good thing? It remains to be seen. In some ways this is a blinder for Labour.

They are pro-Brexit but anti-lack of plan in theory. This only works if the plan actually has substance. If there is no substance in the plan and its nothing more than empty words then they face having to go back on a commons vote committing them to a deal with the Conservatives. It could therefore be a trap for them. It marginalises the none English Nationalist voices too. Voices that are important and deserve to be heard. Voices that if they are not listened to, will have consequences.

What will the Sleaford and North Hykenham (yep again) by election bring?

A vote of confidence in the government, a new ever growing and rising fear of UKIP or something else. How will this colour the start to the New Year?

I don’t know. 2016 has apparently been the year of gin as people turn to the drink to cope. Everything is now Brexitty and Red, White and Blue.
But whose’s? Britain’s? The USA’s? Russia’s? Or France’s?

We look forward to, or more to the point we fear what 2017 could bring. A feeling we have not felt to this degree in many years. A General Election with a UKIP breakthrough. The end of peace in NI. A repeat of the age old betrayal of Scotland’s by the English. The Welsh damned to irrelevance and marginalisation. Brexit vettoed and the subsequent political fallout. The end of the NHS. A bonfire of rights. A new Italian PM and possibly new Eurozone economic crisis. Fillon or Le Pen and at last a real victory for the far right in Europe. The chance of Merkel’s Last Stand. Putin’s partnership with Assad and a new genocide we are powerless to stop. Erdogan pulling the plug on the EU door and unleashing a new wave of refugees onto European shores. The horror of ISIS both within the West and within the Middle East. Trump’s neo-fascism and rise of a New World Order. There is something in there for everyone to dread.

Which will it be? Probably something we have not yet foreseen such are these times.

Act 2 of Brexit in Westminstenders land is bound to be just as dramatic and of course, we leave 2016 in true soap fashion on a real cliff hanger.

All the more reason to enjoy the holiday period and break whatever your politics.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
merrymouse · 15/12/2016 16:54

People voted Leave for many different reasons and many of them are far from poor. (Zac, Boris, Arron, Nigel).

I would like to say

“In a sense if you’re concerned about the economy , then non-experts arguing that it’s good for their feelings is so missing the point.

That’s not the debate you’re wanting to have. What you’re wanting to say is ‘I find this illogical in a very real way, it makes no sense, please show your workings.”"

"In a sense

merrymouse · 15/12/2016 16:55

Oops,

"in a sense

Castelnaumansions · 15/12/2016 16:59

Red posted a while ago about Guy Verhofstadt, sounding scared. I think he is but also, I think there is a fever pitch in politics right now which is unhealthy; good decisions can't be made in a panic. On a personal level, I feel sorry for the guy. It's like they EU are the grown ups faced with an idiotic entitled tantrum throwing toddler who makes no sense because they are a toddler. How can a toddler know what it wants?

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-leaders-fight-brexit-talks-deal-article-50-theresa-may-guy-verhofstadt-brussels-parliament-a7476561.html

lurkinghusband · 15/12/2016 16:59

There were countless posters on here in the early days after June 24th who posted 'it'll blow over in a few weeks' or 'it'all be forgotten in a few months'. ... That's when I really began to think Fuuucccckkkkkk.

Given the UK/England hasn't healed from the divisions of the Reformation (450+years) which was probably as bitter as this, that was - at best - naive.

Castelnaumansions · 15/12/2016 17:00

No offence to toddlers Smile

lalalonglegs · 15/12/2016 17:15

squoosh - still cringing behind my laptop at that film clip

Peregrina · 15/12/2016 17:21

I would argue that most of England and Wales, have healed from the Divisions of the Reformation. Less so with parts of Scotland and certainly not so in Northern Ireland.

Strangely, although the Referendum has caused divisions, it's also brought me closer to a couple of people.

lalalonglegs · 15/12/2016 17:24

Shamelessly stealing toddler cartoon from another EU thread Grin

Westministenders. Boris we wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy Constitutional Crisis?
lurkinghusband · 15/12/2016 17:26

I would argue that most of England and Wales, have healed from the Divisions of the Reformation

And yet it's only within my DS20 lifetime that the monarch can be a Catholic ? Or is it marry a Catholic ? A direct consequence of the reformation, and hardly insignificant Hmm

Castelnaumansions · 15/12/2016 17:29

ha ha la la Grin

Motheroffourdragons · 15/12/2016 17:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

lalalonglegs · 15/12/2016 17:31

I'm not sure that that is something that keeps most of us Catholics awake at night - it's not a wound I consciously nurse. Smile.

Peregrina · 15/12/2016 17:41

I did say most of England and Wales had recovered. It wasn't an issue in the south of England, when I as a non-Catholic married a now lapsed Catholic, nearly 40 years ago, but it was to some of his family in the North West. I am tempted to say there though, that they weren't especially devout, there was an underlying economic issue in that they felt that Catholics were discriminated against - a spill over from N Ireland perhaps?

Almost all of the younger generation there have now lapsed or maybe go at Christmas and Easter at most.

mathanxiety · 15/12/2016 19:15

]]www.independent.co.uk/voices/aleppo-falls-to-syrian-regime-bashar-al-assad-rebels-uk-government-more-than-one-story-robert-fisk-a7471576.html]]
"There is more than one truth" to the story of Aleppo. An excellent article by Robert Fisk heavily critical of basing judgement of events and their participants on what might be called sentimental reasons, and also of journalists who pander to distaste on the part of the viewing and reading public for rigorous analysis.

mathanxiety · 15/12/2016 19:53

Wrt the US press, journalism, the culture war - the US press sold out years ago. Anyone watching broadcast news on any channel in the US can see that.

Louise Mensch is as unreliable on the subject of Tillerson as she is on pretty much everything else. Her quotes come across as 'foaming at the mouth' in tone, though 'ranting' covers it well.
I wonder how many senators personally own shares in Exxon and other companies owned or partially owned by Exxon, and how many have accepted campaign contributions from Exxon. Tillerson has long been associated with the Republican Party and has successfully lobbied for Exxon interests with Republican lawmakers. Exxon has had business interests in Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union.
Now all of a sudden that is completely unacceptable and Tillerson himself is persona non grata?

It is very ironic that the State Department under Hillary Clinton hand picked the successor to the democratically elected president of Ukraine www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 who was ousted in a coup encouraged by the US (Joe Biden visited).
US interference in the affairs of a sovereign state is acceptable because...?

www.independent.co.uk/voices/aleppo-falls-to-syrian-regime-bashar-al-assad-rebels-uk-government-more-than-one-story-robert-fisk-a7471576.html
Reposting the link .

Castelnaumansions · 15/12/2016 20:32

Excellent Fisky article, math thanks. I quite agree and don't always with old Fisky.
wrt to Tillerson, I was trying to find links on the Bush administration and their oil related appointments. plus ca change?
Mensch is in odd source, odd everything really.

Castelnaumansions · 15/12/2016 20:36

I never trusted this 'Arab Spring' and wondered why the reporting of it was so hysterical and enthusiastic. Not that western goodies shouldn't be for all, but Syria and Egypt weren't going to turn into Brussels over night. It was inevitable that it would lead to the ensuing mayhem.

Castelnaumansions · 15/12/2016 20:40

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/15/pupil-data-shared-with-home-office-to-identify-illegal-migrants
Even if poor Anne Frank had been allowed here she'd have been tracked and expelled, teachers are having to do the most gruesome things.
'The revelation comes after an uproar over plans to include questions on schoolchildren’s nationalities and countries of birth on the annual schools census, which campaigners warned could turn teachers into de facto border guards and stoke divisions in the classroom.'
yuck.

Peregrina · 15/12/2016 21:55

Weren't they swearing blind that this data wouldn't be used for immigration purposes? Weren't some trying to defend it as just being routine information which could be useful to know?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2016 21:57

OOPS !

Earlier this month, Transport Minister Chris Grayling had complained in a Cycling Weekly interview that cycle lanes in London “cause too much of a problem for road users” and added: “Motorists in London have got to be immensely careful of cyclists.”

Grayling started dealing with the cyclist problem today outside the Palace of Westminster - he swung open the door of his ministerial car and knocked a cyclist flying, sending his bicycle crashing into a lamppost Shock

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/chris-grayling-sent-cyclist-flying-with-his-car-door-video-shows

< as a fellow cyclist, I shuddered - I really enjoy the super network of cycle lanes in Germany, Belgium & the Netherlands, but there is just no defence against an inconsiderate idiot doing this in traffic >

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2016 22:12

That article about pupil data is surprising:
Home Office to “create a hostile environment” in schools for illegal migrants,

"the DfE will [share] their data with the HO [Home Office] to assist in the process of identifying potential new contact details (including addresses) for the individual(s) and their family members.”

Well, that's a logical progression: May as Home Sec tried to "deprioritise" these pupils.
Now obviously the intention is to frighten their parents into keeping them away from school - because otherwise they risk all the rest of the family being identified and their address reported.

A quick way to appease those who complain their schools have too many immigrant pupils is to frighten away some of them. (That might include frightening off some legal immigrants too, if they are wrongly reported as being illegal)

The other countries I've lives in all choose to educate even pupils in the country illegally, so as not to punish them for the decisions of their parents.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2016 22:43

The same basic idea as cutting down on student visas:
A very quick way to reduce the number of foreign faces that the public sees.
Another political advantage: removing pupils and students doesn't affect employers (well, not in the immediate short term) so they won't be objecting

prettybird · 15/12/2016 23:20

Thought you lot would be amused by this assessment of TM from ds, who was watching the funny but sad coverage of TM at the EU Council meeting today.

From the mouths of babes Wink actually an astute 16 year old Grin: "she has a skeleton swagger who never says anything of substance" he then went into a rant about how she had no direction compared to Blair and Thatcher, who even though he hates what they represented (with the possible exception of the start of Blair's 1st term), at least had a constructive vision of what they wanted to achieve.

I'm pleased that he has a vote at next year's council elections: he is demonstrating more thought and abalysis than many who vote in WM elections - and referendums Wink

mathanxiety · 16/12/2016 00:19

'Hysterical and enthusiastic' hits the nail on the head, Castelnaumansions.
And the name, hearkening back to the Prague Spring, was very loaded. I would like to track down the origin of that label.

The whole sorry spectacle raises questions about the integrity of the press.