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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

OP posts:
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17
lalalonglegs · 08/12/2016 07:55

She was invited to come into the surgery after she wrote to her MP, Theresa May, Peregrina, that's what was odd. It implied that TM was willing to listen but it seems she has more faith in her power to scare someone into submission.

I suppose we shouldn't be shocked by the US reluctance to recount - remember the hanging chads in 2000 and I've previously mentioned my friend, who is an international election observer has found her organisation and similar ones have been banned from observing American elections. But I'm shocked nonetheless.

merrymouse · 08/12/2016 08:32

Re: Theresa May, whether or not it is pleasant to be ambushed by somebody with pie charts, 48% of voters didn't vote Leave, and they are yet to be convinced that the prime minister knows what she is doing.

It's one thing winning (or taking over the winning side) of a referendum or election, but then you have to govern. If the tactics used to win have turned off half of the country (or in the US, apparently most voters) you have a problem.

Theresa May has taken on a difficult job, and it's clear that she has to steer a line between coming up with a practical solution and placating UKIP supporters. However she needs to inspire confidence in all of 'the people'. So far, that isn't happening. From the constituent's story, it sounds as though she has nothing to say to people who voted remain beyond her standard performance in Prime Minister's Questions, and that hasn't been very good.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2016 08:39

Every country can & should act within their own interests, but they must stay within international law.
Russia does not.

Leaders from less powerful countries, like Serbia, have appeared before the ICC and some have been convisted of war crimes.
Putin gets away with war crimes because Russia is too powerful for the ICC to dare tackle.
Also, individual prosecutors & judges probably don't fancy Polonium sushi.

Orthodox Christian values don't include mass murder, any more than other mainstream religions.
In any case, using "the Sky Fairy told me to do so" is no better excuse than "I was just following orders", regardless of whether your preferred flavour of Sky Fairy is Jesus, Mohammed or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Castelnaumansions · 08/12/2016 08:40

'in the USSR and the desire to return to a state where morality is publicly valued, both personal and on a government level - morality as defined by the Orthodox Church'
Well, Merry I take your point about the pull (or is it a push?) in Russia towards a Christian morality but it is a purported and strategic morality. (Pussy Riot etc) It's worked before www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/religion-rome-and-the-reich-the-vaticans-other-dirty-secret-479043.html Watch out for the power of men in dresses and funny hats over here. We are after all subjects not citizens in a country in which the monarch is 'the defender of the faith'. See school selection committees. Being a good atheist doesn't get your child a place. Never mind the offensiveness of compulsory religious teaching to the minority or majority (on church attendance stats) for whom it has no relevance. Trump is onto the same trick. And what all religion means for women's rights is a whole other story. I presume it's abhorrent to the many hard working and virtuous Christians on all sides to be used so cynically.

merrymouse · 08/12/2016 08:42

Erm, I think the post you are quoting was from math.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2016 08:48

Even Cameron managed to thrash Jezza in PMQ, so TM fails even this low bar.

I wouldn't call her mediocre - she isn't even that good.

She appears to be waiting for the 3 Brexiteers to find the lost fag packet (The Great Brexit Plan may have been written on the back. Or not)

Umfortunately, she'll have a long wait for rescue by the 3 Brexiteers:
They would be out of their depth in a half-inch deep puddle at nursery school.

Castelnaumansions · 08/12/2016 08:50

'I've previously mentioned my friend, who is an international election observer has found her organisation and similar ones have been banned from observing American elections.'
This is truly shocking. In this country, what happened to the queues of voters in Sheffield, I think it was in the last election, who couldn't get into the polling booths before they closed? I remember Russian observers calling out the Scottish referendum with, probably fictitious ( I can't use 'post truth' it seems too dangerous a concept!) , you tube footage of counting fraud. Easy to become cynical and not surprising then that everyone involved in civic politics becomes a suspect.

Castelnaumansions · 08/12/2016 08:51

sorry merry

merrymouse · 08/12/2016 09:00

No problem Grin

merrymouse · 08/12/2016 09:05

"But in order to have an interpretation worth listening to, you do actually have to know something. And, although it is hard to pin down which interpretation is right, there are some interpretations that are wrong."

www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/mary-beard-fall-of-roman-empire/

Mistigri · 08/12/2016 09:06

France - where women were hounded on beaches because of wearing the beach equivalent of a burqa?

Lots of crappy racist stuff happens in France, but in this case you are woefully misinformed. This was a local initiative, judged illegal by the courts. Unlike in Russia, the rule of law still applies.

I don't understand this new willingness of both far left and far right to suck up to Putin. Russia is a kleptocracy, where the rule of law is shown scant regard, and where senior politicians run roughshod over democracy and the legal system.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2016 09:22

The very poor standard of leadership in Western countries is accelerating an alarming tendency -
voters deciding they would prefer dictatorship to democracy.

Hard right & hard left - e.g. the Stalinist Seamus Milne - sucking up to the fascist Putin is part of this trend, but it is complicated:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/26/vladimir-putin-russia-oligarch-british-left-speak-out

It seems particularly those who support "populist" or hard right parties have unsurprisingly hard authoritarian preferences. YouGov found in 2015 that - far more than voters of the other main parties:

44% of UKIP voters would support a military coup:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/10/17/very-british-coup/

The USA seems much further along the way, with Trump eager to pack his cabinet with an unprecedented number of ex-generals:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/opinion/why-donald-trump-shouldnt-fill-the-cabinet-with-generals.html

and a Red Cross poll found

"46% of Americans believe it acceptable to TORTURE enemy combatants, with just 30% opposed"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/05/torture-survey-red-cross-people-on-war-poll

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?
howabout · 08/12/2016 09:43

Re the Michigan recount. I was in the US during the hanging chad saga. I think there have to be limits to who can request recounts and in what circumstances. Constant equivocation after the fact leaves even more room for manipulation surely?

Re TM I think it is the mark of a pretty strong PM when she can get all but one of her MPs and the vast majority of the opposition to vote in her favour in committing to triggering A50 when she is not even there. Looks very much like building consensus to me? The contrast with DC and GO deciding and imposing everything is quite stark imo.

Peregrina · 08/12/2016 09:53

Consensus from TM? Or a bunch of politicians who are afraid of losing their seats at the next election? That doesn't explain why Remain voting MPs in Remain constituencies voted the way they did, I agree. More interested in keeping the Tory party together, I imagine. What's best for the country apparently isn't worth discussing.

Mistigri · 08/12/2016 09:56

Looks very much like building consensus to me?

Looks more like the HoC running scared of UKIP and their supporters at the BBC and the tabloids.

merrymouse · 08/12/2016 10:06

Constant equivocation after the fact leaves even more room for manipulation surely?

It's not equivocation. It's auditing and checking. The point is not to change the result but to check that the process was carried out correctly.

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2016 10:07

That New European article was on Facebook and was being shared widely a week before it's been published there.

I did contemplate linking to it here, but I didn't. Why?

Cos the tone and style of it set my bullshit radar off. I think because it's very tabloid in its manner I was very off put by it and wondered just how accurately and fairly it represented the event.

In the end I filed it under the 'unreliable' and 'possibly even fake news' label rather than it saying anything particularly meaningful.

It says very little which is beyond emotional and propaganda.

Now perhaps that's actually is what is needed to stir up some passion and a particular reaction in the face of huge amounts coming from the other direction on a wider level. But personally I was not comfortable with it and don't think it really added anything to debate here which I think is working because this thread is focused on trying to take some of the emotion out of the issue of Brexit.

As a piece of journalism I can't say it's any more productive or helpful than many from the Mail etc.

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 08/12/2016 10:12

I've been pondering the result from last night on the pub thread. Am I being too simplistic to think this was actually just a vote for a plan, hence Tory remainers voting as they did.

The addition of the amendment to include voting for A50 to be invoked by March is a red herring really because the vote is non binding and, if the 'plan' isn't forthcoming, it isn't detailed enough or is just rubbish, then parliament wouldn't support A50 being triggered in March because TM hasn't upheld her part of the vote wrt the plan.

Peregrina · 08/12/2016 10:21

I don't agree Red - I saw the article on facebook first. It was notable for Theresa May's rude treatment of her constituent. It was also notable for her tart reminder that MPs are representatives and not delegates. So why are those MPs who voted Remain in Leave constituencies saying that they have to obey the will of their constituents? So they are delegates are they? In which case why are those who voted Remain in Remain constituencies babbling on about the will of the electorate, why is it they have decided that they are representatives after all, so must vote Leave now?Why are so few - Ken Clarke, Lib Dems and SNP being exceptions - not saying that they are voting for what they believe is the good of the country?

I have asked my MP for a list of reasons as to why she is now talking about the 'will of the people' when she voted Remain in a Remain constituency. A list of bullet points as to why she now supports Leave would be acceptable, but so far, there has been stunning silence - after more than 4 months.

Kaija · 08/12/2016 10:27

Yes I was particularly struck by the irony of the "representatives not delegates" line, given all the "we must carry out the will of the people" stuff. But there's a lot of it about at the moment.

Peregrina · 08/12/2016 10:27

then parliament wouldn't support A50 being triggered in March because TM hasn't upheld her part of the vote wrt the plan.

It's pantomime season - so Oh yes they would. They will because collectively they seem to be totally supine. The Tories aims are 1) keep the Tory party together, and 2) keep UKIP out, (by espousing their policies wholesale.) The good of the country - down the list at 100) or thereabouts.
Labour - not sure what they are about - they seem to have totally lost it, but also 1) Show how we like an internal fight amongst ourselves 2) Keep UKIP out. Good of the country? - er, er, er.

SapphireStrange · 08/12/2016 10:28

I saw the 'meeting with TM' account on FB first too, in a pro-EU group.

The 'brawl' language used by the New European is entirely their spin on it and is deliberately sensational.

The account I read on FB, which I believe was written and posted quite soon after the meeting, and which I'd think of as the 'original', was much more sober and less emotional/emotive than the version in the NE.

I found it persuasive and still see no reason not to believe the constituent or to take her experience as a true reflection of how Theresa May is thinking and behaving over this issue.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/12/2016 10:40

Very interesting analysis about the "new irrationalism” around the world:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/08/welcome-age-anger-brexit-trump

"Rich and poor alike voting for a serial liar and tax dodger have confirmed yet again that human desires operate independently of the logic of self-interest – and may even be destructive of it"

GlassOfPort · 08/12/2016 10:46

I agree that the PLP has become a very sorry spectacle.

What I don't understand is whether Keir Starmer (whom I used to have a lot of time for) is trying to do his best under a very unhelpful leadership or he is the one driving this respect-the-will-of-the-people line.

lurkinghusband · 08/12/2016 11:02

Thanks to Brexit, we need more foreign workers ...

So there has been a fall in applications from EU migrant workers to work on UK farms since the Brexit vote. It's causing crisis in some farms.
What's the government's solution? Apparently, relax visas so that we can get more short-term unskilled labour from outside the EU

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/farms-face-crisis-after-fall-in-migrant-workers-j70jjhjdb