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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

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TheBathroomSink · 16/11/2016 12:59

Red, I think she's talking about the inquiry

merrymouse · 16/11/2016 13:08

I know people who've met him socially and he seems to be always pissed...

But apparently Trump doesn't drink.

Peregrina · 16/11/2016 13:09

I am not sure whether I have asked this on these threads. May is desperately courting the anti immigrant/UKIP vote. Do these outnumber the moderate Tory vote?

Cameron's successor in Witney managed to lose 19,000 Tory votes. I don't think it was all due to a sudden enthusiasm for Liberal Democracy, but because Tory voters stayed at home. Some of whom were horrified at the racism unleashed since the Referendum.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 13:12

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
The government's handling of Britain's exit from the EU has been a...
Good job: 37%
Bad job: 48%
(via Ipsos Mori / 11 - 14 Nov)

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RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 13:15

Arhh TBS. I was trying to work out what it was about.

Resignations in the inquiry would also be damaging to May though.

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WifeofDarth · 16/11/2016 13:33

That pesky 48% eh, they crop up every now and again.

I have just received a note from my MP (currently in cabinet) about the redrawing of constituency boundaries, encouraging us to support Option A (which retains the seat) rather than option B (in which this cabinet minister's constituency would be abolished).

I will look into it further (and chase a reply to the letter I sent 6 weeks ago re Con Conf & hard brexit).

BoredOfBrexit · 16/11/2016 13:54

Taken from newsfeed:
An overwhelming majority of voters - 90 per cent - want Britain to continue to trade freely in goods and services with its European neighbours after quitting the EU, according to a survey.

But 70 per cent think the UK should be able to limit the number of EU citizens coming to live and work in the country - something leading European politicians say is not compatible with the single market membership required to permit untrammelled free trade.

Forced to choose between the two priorities, voters questioned by NatCen Social Research opted by the narrowest of margins for immigration controls, with 49 per cent thinking freedom of movement for EU citizens should be kept if it enables the UK to keep free trade, and 51 per cent opposing it.

NatCen senior research fellow Professor John Curtice said the findings suggested voters are not attracted by either the "hard Brexit" or "soft Brexit" scenarios which are often presented as the only options in Britain's withdrawal negotiations.

TheNorthRemembers · 16/11/2016 13:56

Red Its a particularly nasty and rowdy PMQs

I am sitting next to BBC News on telly at work and I had to put my headphones on.

RhuBarbarella · 16/11/2016 14:27

from the guardian just now:
The SNP’s Tommy Shepherd, meanwhile, asked May what she might do if the US president-elect, Donald Trump, followed up on his pledge to restrict access to the US for Muslims.

May declined to criticise Trump, saying: “The special relationship we have with the United States is very important to both the United States and the United Kingdom. We will be continuing to build on that special relationship.

“That was very clear from the conversation I had with President-elect Trump shortly after his election. But we of course want to ensure the dignity of our citizens. It is up to the United States what rules they put in place in terms of entry across their borders. But we will be ensuring that those special relationship continues and continues in the interests of both the UK and the US.”

Is she actually saying that the UK would support Trump if he puts in rules about Muslims entering the country?
No, she can't, surely not.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 16/11/2016 14:35

Rhu wouldn't put it past her, nothing surprises me anymore in this crazy world we are now living in.

Peregrina · 16/11/2016 14:36

Is there no limit to May's toadying? I think Trump might not ban wealthy Muslims - there always seem to be exceptions for the wealthy.

What exactly does this 'Special relationship' give us? As far as I can see, it allows us to support the Americans in their latest war, and provides very little for us.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 16/11/2016 14:43

She is so weak she's probably waiting for Nigel to tell her what to reply. Angela Merkel's response to Trump's election was spot on and May should follow her lead.

Peregrina · 16/11/2016 14:49

Would the Tories accept Nigel back into the fold? He would want to be PM, but May is desperate to hang onto that, having got there at last. BoJo wouldn't be best pleased either, because he is just waiting for the shitestorm to finish and come riding in on his white charger.

The current situation suits Farridge down to a T - he can cause as much fuss as he wants, stir up as much hatred as he wants, but do F* All.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 14:52

No he does not want to be PM. Too much work. He wants to manipulate the PM though. All the perks without the responsibility.

I don't know that he could cope with the pressures of the job himself.

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iwanttoridemybicycle · 16/11/2016 14:56

BoJo may find he is waiting rather a long time then.

TheBathroomSink · 16/11/2016 14:57

Farage can rejoin the Conservative party, but given that he's tried to get elected to Parliament 7(?) times and failed on every attempt, he'd probably only do it if he was promised a nice safe seat, and given that May is still insisting no GE until 2020, he'd need a by-election for that.

Also, would he even be able to stand as a Tory candidate whilst still a Ukip MEP?

Peregrina · 16/11/2016 15:09

Presumably Farridge just crosses the floor in the EU Parliament? Problem solved.

I have a very slight modicum of respect for Carswell when he changed sides - he was at least prepared to stand in a by - election to ask his constituents if that was what they wanted.

TheBathroomSink · 16/11/2016 15:27

I was thinking he'd have to do that first though, wouldn't he? Which would be taking a risk given his previous inability to win an election.

I know Ukip would have him back in a flash if he failed, but he'd look a bit of a twat going back if he lost - and I can't see him staying as a Tory MEP!

prettybird · 16/11/2016 15:35

I think Trump might not ban wealthy Muslims - there always seem to be exceptions for the wealthy.

That logic would have worked soooo well with Bin Laden, who came from a wealthy Saudi family. Hmm

Peregrina · 16/11/2016 15:54

Did Bin Laden ever go to the US? The people who flew the planes into the twin towers would just have been ordinary men, and not especially wealthy.

merrymouse · 16/11/2016 16:06

The Conservatives must be clued up enough to know that Farage would be a liability. Yes, he would bring along a few UKIP supporters, but he wouldn't be controllable and he wouldn't stop seeking the limelight.

lalalonglegs · 16/11/2016 16:11

He did but a decade or two before the attack on the Twin Towers and to quite a backwater (Ohio? Missouri? Indiana?) for a couple of weeks with his wife. I don't know what he was doing there - I think it was before he was radicalised. I suppose if it was the 1980s, he might have been a friend of America since they'd been arming him in Afghanistan to fight the Russians.

merrymouse · 16/11/2016 16:12

Watching recording of PMQs.

Wondering what this secret negotiating strategy is. Secret reserves of oil in the Thames?

Seriously, what is a secret negotiating strategy? How would the element of surprise be helpful here?

LurkingHusband · 16/11/2016 16:13

The Conservatives must be clued up enough to know that Farage would be a liability

That sentence alone underscores how useless Labour have been - and are being - at discharging their official role as Her Majesties Loyal Opposition

It's funny ... cleaners in the NHS have more oversight and accountability than government.

Trufflethewuffle · 16/11/2016 16:14

Giving Farage a peerage would keep him out of the Commons I guess.

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