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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

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LurkingHusband · 16/11/2016 11:08

On balance I think the UK has coped fairly well without a written constitution enshrining the right to bear arms, and dictators are under no obligation to follow any constitution.

I agree. But the contrary view is that before a dictator got power he would have to disarm the populace. The idea that the citizenry is capable of fighting back is a powerful meme in US consciousness and goes back to the fact that one of the edicts from the tyrant King George was to remove arms from the population.

Despite the constitution. I don't think America has better dog laws than the UK.

Smile
merrymouse · 16/11/2016 11:18

One reassuring thing about the US at the current time: elections in 2 years. I don't know whether that is always a good thing, but it does give opposition a peaceful, democratic focus.

whatwouldrondo · 16/11/2016 11:30

For something completely different. This is interesting and provocative

app.scmp.com/scmp/mobile/index.html#/article/2046497/desktop

Xie is a Chinese economist based in Shanghai who is criticised as an American parrot but he has correctly predicted every bubble in Asia and the West (and lost his job at Morgan Stanley for being a little too provocative)

BestIsWest · 16/11/2016 11:39

Even within Wales there is a North - South divide.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 11:40

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/nigel-farage-hints-he-may-seek-to-rejoin-the-tories-as-sources-s/
Nigel Farage hints he may seek to rejoin the Toriesas sources suggested he will meet with Theresa May

Nigel Farage has hinted he may seek to rejoin the Conservatives in a bid to hold the Party to account over Brexit, as sources suggested he will meet with Theresa May following discussions with Donald Trump.

The interim Ukip leader's allies believe the Prime Minister will be forced to meet Mr Farage "sooner than people think" because the President-elect's team "won't let her ignore" him.

It comes after aides close to Mr Farage suggested that Mr Trump will consult him about any policy proposals which will affect Britain before he contacts Mrs May.

He wants to control the PM. He wants to be the puppet master without responsibility.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/donald-trump-nigel-farage-brexit-vote-working-class-people-middle-class-elite-racist-misogynist-a7420426.html
Failing to hold working class people to account when they're racist or misogynistic is patronising and wrong

www.ft.com/content/864c3a96-fbf1-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0a0d
Lunch with the FT: Nigel Farage
‘I am what I am,’ says the Ukip leader over six pints, a bottle of wine and two glasses of port

We take our third pint to the courtyard. An hour gone, and the alcohol we’ve consumed is already half the recommended weekly limit. “I know. It’s just ludicrous,” says Farage, resting on an old beer barrel, his mood livelier than his grey suit suggests. He reaches for his third cigarette. “They’ll be telling us this is bad for us next. They want to live forever!”

I ask about his hobby: visiting first-world-war battlefields. Farage opens up. “Whenever I go there, I always think, what would I have done? If I was a 19-year-old, fresh out of college … would I have been a proper man or not?”

Our table is ready inside. We squeeze alongside each other on a wooden bench with our backs to the window. Farage orders the house speciality — stewed cheese — for both of us, and picks a bottle of wine. For me, this is now entering stag-party territory; for him, it’s little more than holy communion. “The thing we used to drink here was port,” he says. “We’d all go back to work, all crimson. That’s just what we did! No one cared. I don’t drink port at all now, ever.”

What happened in the afternoons? “Chaos. Extraordinary. I remember once there was a really big cock-up … I remember the boss saying, ‘So when did this happen?’ ‘Half-past four yesterday afternoon.’ ‘Oh well, there we are then.’ The boss accepted this!”

Farage is quick to depict politics as a sacrifice. “I’m a loopy optimist, aren’t I?” he says. “I like to think I’ve changed the centre of gravity on lots of national debates. But there is no life at all — nothing.” It would be even worse, he says, if he’d succeeded in his seventh attempt to enter parliament last year. “Can you imagine if I’d been elected to Westminster? I’d need to be there every day.”

He has four children, two with his second wife Kirsten, who is German. In the 2000s, he twice had to remortgage his house in Kent. “My financial position is slightly better than it was, but for about 10 years it was pretty rough,” he says. How is it better? “It just is. Slightly better. There we are,” he says, drawing a boundary.

and

How would he have voted in Britain’s previous European referendum in 1975, had he been old enough? “I’d have voted ‘yes,’” he says, citing the need to bring down tariff barriers.

What about trade now? I ask. Surely the UK wouldn’t be able to negotiate trade deals as easily if it left the EU. “Iceland managed it!” he shoots back. But on what terms? “They’re happy! Switzerland’s happy!”

Iceland is not screwed at all for at least a generation.

I think there might be a reason Mr Farage does not seem to be able to do a days work.

Anyway, I'll park that there.

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Motheroffourdragons · 16/11/2016 11:50

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

LurkingHusband · 16/11/2016 11:51

What on earth would Theresa May do with him ?

Make him a peer ?

Motheroffourdragons · 16/11/2016 11:52

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

whatwouldrondo · 16/11/2016 11:57

Theresa needs to get on a plane and develop a relationship with Trump, it will probably require Boris to be along for the right sort of ego boosting locker room talk, but that is her and Boris's job. Farage has no legitimate role and needs to be neutralised and sidelined, if she does anything else then she has no respect for her own or Boris's Office of State.

merrymouse · 16/11/2016 11:58

The interim Ukip leader's allies believe the Prime Minister will be forced to meet Mr Farage "sooner than people think" because the President-elect's team "won't let her ignore" him

But politically, how could she survive being seen to be at the beck
and call of either Farage or Trump?

merrymouse · 16/11/2016 12:05

Diplomatically, if America tried to impose an unelected politician on the UK, I can't see a way that it wouldn't end badly.

(And isn't the US now trying to keep out of other country's politics?)

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 12:05

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB

Latest @IpsosMORI poll sees drop in CON lead. LAB & LDs the gainers
CON 42% -5
LAB 33% +4
LD 10% +3
UKIP 7% +1

Randy Prine @randyprine
Twitter suspends alt-right accounts
www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2016/11/15/twitter-suspends-alt-right-accounts/93943194/

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/public-affairs/public-affairs-campaigns/news/80820/stark-warning-over-government
Stark warning over government scrutinyy after boundary review

Too manyMPscould end up “in the pocket” of the Prime Minister after constituency numbers are cut - putting parliamentary democracy at risk, campaigners have warned.

The Electoral Reform Society said nearly one in four - 23% - of MPs could take ministerial jobs following the boundary changes - the highest number on record - unless a cap is imposed.

It argued the record low proportion of backbenchers could let the Government off the hook in what it branded a “crisis of scrutiny”.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/16/michael-gove-raises-question-of-quickie-divorce-for-uk-from-eu?CMP=twt_gu
Michael Gove raises question of 'quickie divorce' for UK from EU
Former leave campaigner asks experts why Brexit cannot take place without future relationship with bloc being settled

Where would you like me to start Mr Gove. That's pure insanity.

Michael Gove, the former cabinet minister and leading Brexit campaigner, has pressed experts on how the UK could achieve a “quickie divorce” with the EU regardless of the economic consequences, as he raised concerns that civil servants were over-complicating the process.

head in hands

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SapphireStrange · 16/11/2016 12:07

Farage has no legitimate role and needs to be neutralised and sidelined, if she does anything else then she has no respect for her own or Boris's Office of State.

Fully agree. At the same time, I can actually see her meeting him and giving him a role. Terrifying.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 12:09

PMQs. Corbyn asks if we are leving the custom union.

May does answer the question properly but George Eaton points out the following.

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton
May says "our plan is to negotiate free trade deals around the world". That means leaving the Customs Union. #PMQs

Fun and games at Dover and lots of red tape. Don't even mention what this means for NI...

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merrymouse · 16/11/2016 12:09

raised concerns that civil servants were over-complicating the process.

Those pesky experts with their insistence that reality will assert itself, regardless of the referendum.

whatwouldrondo · 16/11/2016 12:12

Mind you if I was Leader of the shit show that is UKIP I'd be using my brown nosing of Trump to get myself into the Tories as well. It can't be fun on a daily basis, no wonder he needs 10units of alcohol every lunchtime.....

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 12:16

Corbyn nearly blew his top. Genuinely looked angry.

May was completely rattled.

He went on about Chancellor without fiscal strategy, health secretary running down the NHS, Brexit team without a plan, Justice secretary unable to defend judiciary and a PM unable to answer questions about Brexit.

She was NOT happy. Turned around and said that Labour who had a leader who was unable to lead.

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amaravatti · 16/11/2016 12:19

#hearourvoice
www.facebook.com/events/2169332969958991/
Million women march on Washington on January 21st
When's the british one?

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 12:22

Election Data ‏@election_data
"What's the plan?"
"Not telling you!"
"What's the plan??"
"You're incompetent!"
(Rinse and Repeat)
#PMQs

Its a particularly nasty and rowdy PMQs

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RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 12:31

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
UKIP's Carswell asks about mutual recognition of standards underpinning new trade deals not EU style arrangements. PM "welcomes" his support
^PM rather warm to @DouglasCarswell there..

Callum McCaig ‏@callum_mccaig
Theresa May incredibly weak responding to @TommySheppard Q on possibility of Trump banning British citizens from US based on religion.

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RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 12:32

Sorry PM rather warm was Faisal's comment too.

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Peregrina · 16/11/2016 12:46

UKIP's Carswell asks about mutual recognition of standards underpinning new trade deals not EU style arrangements. PM "welcomes" his support

I can't see what difference this makes - manufacturers who export globally already have to cope with standards pertaining in the differing markets. If we still export to the EU, we will still have to comply with those standards, but we will have sacrificed the chance to have an input into them.

jaws5 · 16/11/2016 12:48

I think there might be a reason Mr Farage does not seem to be able to do a days work I know people who've met him socially and he seems to be always pissed...

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 12:51

Robert Peston ‏@Peston
@theresamay refuses to deny there has been official discussion of giving @NigelFarage a peerage

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak
Source just told me there might be 2,000 Statutory Instruments that need to be voted thro as part of the Great Repeal Bill - blimey

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Well.
(At least. Would expect total to be a multiple of this.)

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RedToothBrush · 16/11/2016 12:54

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak
Nandy says there could be more resignations to come

Oh? CON ones?

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