Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
lalalonglegs · 14/11/2016 13:48

It's an idea that is likely to stick though, isn't it? There is an awful lot of people out there who think MPs are lazy, overpaid and basically in it for their own ends and it's pushing at an open door to portray a (pro-EU) section of them as just that - the data on attendance at the HoC etc is very easy to spin. It's cynical even by Banks's shockingly low standards Sad.

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 13:49

Quite Unicorns.

This gives everyone else time to come up with a campaign strategy that isn't total arse like the last one.

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 14/11/2016 13:54

Also I've heard that many American SAHMs like the stuff Trump says about returning to family values

Q: What's the easiest way to boost employment - particularly in unskilled roles - without actually doing too much ?

A: Remove women from the labour (sorry, labor) market.

Q: What's the easiest way to remove women from the labour (sorry, labor) market ?

A: Bang on about "family values" and foster an environment making working women feel somehow less-than-perfect mothers.

You read it here first Sad.

PattyPenguin · 14/11/2016 14:00

Interesting stuff from the ILO on what is behind Brexit and Trump (and other potential developments)

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/14/economic-frustration-spawned-trump-brexit-warns-ilo-chief

What is not very encouraging is this bit, particularly the sentence I've put in bold:
"“We have to construct something which is different from both of those two poles and to demonstrate, or to convince people, that there are different ways. That we can manage our labour markets,” he says.

But middle ground between the two binary options requires the hard work of doing some fairly hard engineering of labour markets.”"

Just looking at the UK, I can't imagine the Tories managing that.

Peregrina · 14/11/2016 14:03

Q: What's the easiest way to remove women from the labour (sorry, labor) market ?
A: Bang on about "family values" and foster an environment making working women feel somehow less-than-perfect mothers.

Worked in immediate post war Britain, but then we had a lot of men returning from the Forces. Is there that same pool of male Labour available in the US?

LurkingHusband · 14/11/2016 14:04

I personally think Banks is already trying to start the election stuff. There is a concern about whether Leave voters will turnout post ref and this today is illustrating that.

Whilst it was a stroke of genius to find a way to engage the previously unengaged, there is a reason they were unengaged and they have now gone back to default "what ?" mode.

I suspect trying to re-acquire them is going to prove very expensive on a £/voter basis.

So much cheaper to use the newspapers to do it for you Hmm. Hello ! Daily ! Mail !

Has anyone heard how Bridget Christie tried to deal with lads mags in supermarkets ? I wonder if there could be a similar campaign to deal with the Daily Mail ?

SapphireStrange · 14/11/2016 14:05

Mother, I can't and won't agree that it's meant to be just 'banterful'; IME it was meant more seriously and spitefully. People who are real friends don't and wouldn't do it, again IME. I don't go to Glasgow very often these days, but I like to think that I'm now old and bolshy enough that I would call out anti-English remarks if I received them.

I'm sorry to hear that you have to put up with anti-Scottish sentiment, though, obviously; however it's meant, and wherever it happens, it's wearisome to say the least.

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 14:11

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/daily-mail-suspicious-package-evacuated-found-kensington-metropolitan-police-a7416501.html]]
Daily Mail evacuated after 'suspicious package' found

The Daily Mail has been evacuated after a suspicious package has been found.

Brilliant.

This one will get spun well won't it?

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 14/11/2016 14:14

The Daily Mail has been evacuated after a suspicious package has been found.

It was probably "news" - no one could identify it.

HFWFHAJwithlove · 14/11/2016 14:17

At the risk of sounding completely ignorant, who is Arron Banks?

TheBathroomSink · 14/11/2016 14:22

HFWFHAJwithlove - he's the money and a large chunk of the brains behind Ukip and Leave.EU. He's the puppeteer operating the slightly more acceptable face of Farage.

He wants power, and lots of it, without accountability.

Peregrina · 14/11/2016 14:35

Banks/Farage getting the vote out to suit their anti EU agenda is one thing because it was a one off. Finding candidates for all the Parliamentary seats will be quite another. (She says, hoping that Farage will stay over in the US, and UKIP will collapse totally into in fighting.)

usuallydormant · 14/11/2016 14:37

I work in a communications related function and there has been a huge amount of research and work put into behavioral science and how to use the insights on that in marketing, and politics.

It's mainly based on the work of Daniel Kahneman, who won a Nobel Prize for work, and his key text is a book Thinking, Fast and Slow. It's based on the theory (and lots of evidence) that humans are nowhere near as rational as we think we are and we base our decision making on gut reactions, built on associations we have made over the years. Plus we go for the easiest win, that makes us feel best consistently. Statistics and facts are used to back the opinions we have already formed.

Building on Kahneman, and advances in neuroscience there is a lot of new thinking on how people consume media and communications and form opinions and while generally it is being used to sell consumer goods and brands, I fear that the likes of Bannon know it only too well. It is telling that one of Trump's first real appointments is his minister for propaganda.

I know the Obama campaign used these concepts in the past and in fact the UK goverment has its own "Nudge" Unit. It is mainly used for finding simple ways to get people to opt in to schemes and take speeding signs seriously but I was amazed watching the Brexit campaign that it didn't seem to follow (m)any of the key insights from behavioural economics in the Remain campaign.

Here is Kahneman on Brexit and Trump, back in June
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/05/british-voters-succumbing-to-impulse-irritation-and-anger---and/

The media is the battleground in the new world order.

HFWFHAJwithlove · 14/11/2016 14:50

I found Thinking, Fast and Slow very insightful. "Nudging' is also increasingly used in public health. I too was surprised that 'nudging' and effective social media communication were not used in the Remain campaign usual.

Boredofbrexit · 14/11/2016 15:08

I, also, am part of the Scots diasporaWink but have lived in England longer than I lived in Scotland. I still get the Jock 'jokes'. Mostly I let it go by although it can be tiresome. Recently my daughter moved to senior school where my 'strong' accent was remarked upon by her new friends - when I gently chided this could be considered racist the parents and children were like this Shock.

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 15:22

So how do the Lib Dems, Labour and the Cons get all emotional?

Answers on a postcard to T. Farron, J. Corbyn and T. May

How do you point out propaganda and manipulation?

I think corruption and career politicians are very much a problem in politics (which is part of its strength of the appeal of the idea) but I am also very aware that this isn't really the point Banks and co are trying to make. They are employing a guilt by association strategy. But explaining this is a logical and rational thing to do which will not work.

One of the common patterns that has been used has been to jump in first shouting 'nazi' at the EU whilst having far right views or to jump in shouting 'corrupt' when you have Neil Hamilton amongst your ranks. Similar story for Trump, with 'the election is rigged' and 'Crooked Hillary' when your far worse. Etc.

How to break that?

We need a bit of passion people. Its doable, there's lots of passionate people here but we need ideas NOW.

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 14/11/2016 15:53

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Boredofbrexit · 14/11/2016 16:03

MotherGrinGrin Good beer too!

Corcory · 14/11/2016 16:03

Luckily I am very good at assimilating an accent as a Scot in England no one realised I was Scottish! Only when I heard my mum speak on the phone did I revert back, all without me realising!

Boredofbrexit · 14/11/2016 16:05

corcory - I do have a posh work voice but it all goes to hell once I have a Wine

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 16:06

I think half of Scotland is on here! I feel out numbered.
Though, I can claim tartan and have a lengthy traceable Scottish ancestry.

I might need a Scottish passport yet. Clutches straws

OP posts:
Boredofbrexit · 14/11/2016 16:07

There's a lot of us about. Makes me think of the wide mouth frog joke.

Boredofbrexit · 14/11/2016 16:08

RTB we are all clutching that strawSmile

merrymouse · 14/11/2016 16:10

We just get on with it, if we fell out with everybody who does it we would have no friends left. It isn't pleasant, but I don't think it is a hate crime, just 'banterful' stuff that we all have to suck up from time to time.

Not particularly talking about Scotland or England, but bigotry and bullying
are the dark side of 'banter'. It doesn't take much to turn people against each other during bitter political campaigns. Honestly, the EU campaign was as much about being part of a tribe as any vote in Scottish independence.

merrymouse · 14/11/2016 16:24

Plus we go for the easiest win, that makes us feel best consistently.

But on top of that, even once you have chosen a candidate, apparently in America you have to sort out ID, maybe track down the polling station, queue for hours at the polling station and maybe not get to the polling station before it closes anyway.

You need more than a nudge to overcome that.

The thing is this isn't something Americans have over looked - they know this is s problem. Confused

Swipe left for the next trending thread