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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris worries about the land of his birth and simply wonders, what the hell next!?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/11/2016 21:26

Of all the Westministers intro I’ve done to date, I think this has been the hardest to write.

My first thought is where on earth to start, and then where to stop with how Trump’s victory affects us in the UK. It completely changes international relations. The political fall out is going to be considerable and potentially radioactive in its toxicity.

To hardened Brexiteers, America falling to Trump represents the domino effect in progress. It will embolden them. And the fear is that on 4th December both Italy and Austria could fall next as they respectively, face a referendum and a re-run of the presidential election.

And then there’s France…

All of this is a threat to the EU. It just leaves everyone, including the UK asking what next? And what of our relationship with the US? Who knows? It makes it look around and say, can we rely on the US, and without the US surely we have no choice but to grow closer to the EU. Perhaps there is a role for us in-between but there really are no guarantees and do we want to make that choice?

The suggestion is that May has no love for Trump. And whilst the hard right might harbour fantasies about becoming the 51st State, which seem to be led by Farage himself, this exposes the one red line that could bring the fury of the country down on the government to its extinction. The NHS. Its not for sale. Its not to be subject to a trade deal.

In a curious turn of events, rumours grow that the government will contend at the Supreme Court that a50 CAN be reversed afterall. Davis had personally been responsible for the original line that its not reversible. This was a political decision to tie us into leaving, and show intent and seriousness to Leavers. Yet it was always a crazy one that is not in the national interest.

Going back on this totally changes the game.

It would be a move that will go down well with Remainers and Liberal Leavers but will enrage the hardliners especially if the ECJ is part of this new tact.

It off loads a pile of risk and it is the prudent and sensible approach. It is much needed to protect the best interests of the country overall. Its also that magic ‘Get Out of Jail Free Card’ for that promised Nissan deal.

The change of tact would also help to appease MPs and much opposition to Brexit. And in doing so, also lessens the chances of a HoC rebellion against May and also reduces the chances of an early election, thus is perhaps a more stabilising way forward. It encourages negotiation of a good deal that other parties and rebels will also find agreeable rather than them feeling like they are being held to ransom on.

It would almost certainly delay things and might interfere with May’s precious timetable.

But there’s France… and the Presidential elections are in April/May

Do we really want to trigger article 50, if post Trump, the domino really is likely to fall there too and Le Pen wins the Presidency? There is suddenly a potential ally for major EU reform. Or even its collapse. Now is not the time to do something rash and drastic but to hold our nerve just a little longer.

It makes sense to everyone to hang fire and delay. If only briefly to see what now happens.

There are dangers in doing this though. The prospect of the ECJ being involved in a case which is in essence about our Constitution, is not only embarrassing but could be explosive. It will raise fears of leavers that Brexit will not happen. It will play to the extremes and the agenda of UKIP. It exposes judges to the press and criticism that they are activists and also trying to stop Brexit. Though Gove seems to have changed his tune and is defending them rather more than he was previously...

With tensions running high will Farage get his 100,000 march? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that one. He is trying to win through intimidation though, and that makes people fear him if we don’t do his bidding and what’s happening over in the States only emboldens him and makes others fear him more. He is divisive and never will be able to serve the national interest, because of it no matter how honest his delusions of being an ambassador to Trump are.

It just adds to the growing sense of helplessness and growing question of whether the proud tradition of British liberalism can even survive? It becomes appears to many this is ultimately the goal of Mr Farage – and not the EU. The EU is just a protector of it.

Well I don’t believe that Farage does have it all his way and has the monopoly on people power, nor a connection to the public that no one else has.

One of the themes developing on twitter, is one about passion, hope and a new sense of purpose. One to defend British values and not become like Trumpland. We have a warning and an example of how it really could be worse and it’s not a pretty sight.

I remember during the referendum one poster unsure of how to vote, asking simply:
“I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction”.

It was a question I found difficult to answer at the time. To me it highlighted how much people did want something to believe in and to not having that. We must start to build on that, and provide that alternative.

But I do believe those things to believe in were there all along. The NHS and our open democracy, whatever the flaws and imperfections of our institutions they have endured and survived for a reason – and not just for the benefit of the ‘elite’.

We just took them for granted, and now we are going to have to stand up and make sure people know that by speaking out, and know that while moderates might have it in their nature to compromise there are also some things we just can not loose in the process. We must not be drawn into a battle along violent lines as it will be used against those who do. We can’t loose our soul in trying to defend what is precious, nor should we try and reassure ourselves by finding justification for things that can not and should not be justified.

The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote in notes to himself;

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

I think that message rings true now both for Leave and Remain supporters alike. You might have made a decision on 23rd June but you still have other choices to make now.

Choose to stay sane.

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RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 23:44

Yeah Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus.

Trump's Cabinet is already looking thoroughly unholy.

(By the way in Trump's victory speech he broke from tradition and didn't say 'God Bless America' which I'm sure hasn't gone down well in certain quarters).

Noting that Bannon's agenda is apparently libertarian and wants to promote free speech including what many would call hate speech, whilst Trump apparently wants to extend liable laws. A democrat who has spoken strongly against Trump since the result has be told by a close Trump aide that he should consider very carefully what he says "legally".

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RedToothBrush · 13/11/2016 23:49

www.politico.com/story/2016/09/steve-bannon-breitbart-employees-criticize-227672

Steve Bannon makes Arron Banks look cute and cuddly.

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mathanxiety · 14/11/2016 00:55

Wrt the furniture in Trump Towers - you can get gilded tat like that in K-Mart. It's not solid gold like Trump's is but it looks like it. I have personally seen decor like that in a few American homes. This is the sort of furniture people's grannies have, with gilt frames, plastic covers on the couches and the silk lampshades, all plush, lots of shine. It is a very familiar style to people in rural America and people in small cities and even in suburban America.

As Whatwouldrondo suggests, it is most definitely a 'man of the people' style. It is not ugly-arch-conservative-masters-and-serfs stuff.

Also, while the Farage photos have naturally caused a stir in the UK, Farage's presence has not caused a blip on anyone's radar in the US.

Wrt the leaked memo - I think the Embassy is wrong to assume Trump is putty in anyone's hands and also that he is some sort of outsider. He has his own media and his own personnel to run the White House and relationships with legislators, and above all to manage his image and his message. I think he will be a demagogue president, inciting contempt for legislators by means of his 'outsider' media and I suspect the Republicans will be as much his targets as the Democrats.

Kaija · 14/11/2016 07:32

Thank you, red (bit late to this thread).

What a mess.

Peregrina · 14/11/2016 07:35

Also, while the Farage photos have naturally caused a stir in the UK, Farage's presence has not caused a blip on anyone's radar in the US.

Yet from reading our Press and the BBC you would think he was the only politician who mattered - instead of being someone who has been incapable of getting elected to Parliament.

I suspect the Republicans will be as much his targets as the Democrats.
Are both sides likely to turn on him to get rid of him, or doesn't American politics work in that way?

mathanxiety · 14/11/2016 07:46

No, they both have various agendas, and they have to work with Trump and with each other to get them carried out. Trump also has an agenda and will have to work with the Senate and the House to get his agenda passed.

There will be midterm elections in 2018. At stake will be all 435 seats in the Hose of Representatives and one third of the Senate. This prospect will be hanging over the heads of the House and Senate. Trump's apparent success or failure in getting his agenda passed will have an effect on support for the GOP in these elections too. The next two years may well feature a good deal of horse trading.

merrymouse · 14/11/2016 08:11

Thanks Red.

From a UK perspective the voting arrangements seem very strange, but then I think oh yeah, gun laws, health care, Americans only seem to be like us. These problems won't have started with Trump.

America is supposed to lead the world in selling convenience, but they don't seem to have mastered convenient voting.

I find it so odd, that people in a country that celebrates independence every year seem to have either little control or little interest in who represents them. Almost half the population, for various reasons, might as well still have the Queen as their head of state.

merrymouse · 14/11/2016 08:22

Re: Farage, I think the worrying thing is the conservatives giving quotes to the papers implying that he is some kind of strategic genius.

  1. If Farage is responsible for Brexit, then actually it was all about racism.

  2. We have always known that you can win votes with hate speech. (And this isn't unique to the right.) What we don't like is where it leads.

HFWFHAJwithlove · 14/11/2016 08:51

HAs anyone seen the BBC interview with Marine Le Pen?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37964776.

She seems to be parroting UKIP/Trump soundbites such as "people v elite" and "unelected EU technocrats". I feel that because she seems to be copying their 'narrative' rather than presenting her nationalist ideas in a more original, French way, she comes across as unconvincing which is good.

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 09:05

I have a British friend who moved to the states some years ago and I've stayed with him several times when he lived in California. He moved to the mid west a couple of years ago and found a bigger culture shock moving from the coast than to California from the UK. I've long said myself that the Uk is culturally far closer to Europe than the US but most people in the UK tend to see it differently, mainly because of the language difference.

The Uk is important to the us because of language and it is why in my opinion they will offer us a trade deal promptly as they will want to drag us along with their agenda. Why? Because Steve Bannon is chief strategist and he's a media baron. If liberal media is part of 'the enemy' then they will want to influence that. And since we are English speaking we are important as we offer alternative media sources to America.

Steve Bannon is a big posting and one that should set off alarm bells. He is a statement of intent. He is also important as his influence is something outside the checks and balances of Congress. He can spread ideas and use certain new language to put press back on congress. The term liberal fascist for example. We are also likely to see some sort of attempt at liberal suppression. ( There's plenty of signs of it already) whilst promoting at the same time 'free speech' except this only really applies to certain groups. Trump's plan to extend libel laws fits in with this and the 1st amendment by being a threat as much as a tool.

You might see trump condemning hate speech but Bannon is your thorn there. It just distances trump from the hate a bit ( see comments about milosevics brand of nationalism and plausible deniability) The fact Bannon was appointed by him is your pointer to this being a load of bollocks.

Bannon to me signals that trump's presidency is going to be every bit as bad as a lot of people fear.

Look out for those new terms that make hate sentiments look rather shiny and palatable. They have started.

This is fucking grim. And Y Y to commens about Farage.

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MagikarpetRide · 14/11/2016 09:07

So how does everyone feel that we're the far right wing poster boys? Sad

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 09:13

Michael Barbaro ‏@mikiebarb (New York Times)
New chief strategist at White House ran news organization that published all this recently....

The website he runs, Breitbart News, recently accused President Obama of "importing more hating Muslims"; compared Planned Parenthood's work to the Holocaust; called Bill Kristol, the conservative commentator, a "renegade Jew"; and advised female victims of online harassment to "just log off" and stop "screwing up the internet for men" illustrating that point with a picture of a crying child.

So folks how does it feel to be on a website that ruins the internet for men?

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RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 09:17

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Understand why alt-right is an irritating term, but there is something unique to this movement, from its origins, to its digital reliance, to its approach for far-right politics, that makes the name useful. Bigger concern, as @SophieWarnes points out here, is places like the Beeb calling them 'conservative'.

Sophie Warnes ‏@SophieWarnes
Call a spade a spade for fuck's sake. This is how you walk headlong into fascism.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
They're not conservative. They're far-right & should be described as such. They just happen to be a particular subset of the far-right.

Language matters.

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Peregrina · 14/11/2016 09:19

I wonder how long Theresa May will pander to them for the sake of a crummy trade deal - crummy from the UK's side that is? How many insults will she put up with?

I first became aware of the US elections when Kennedy was elected - that was the first time a Catholic was elected if my memory is correct. Since that time, I have never seen rioting in the US over a presidential election, until now.

jaws5 · 14/11/2016 09:23

Thank red and others. This is truly grim. Le Pen has copied the brexit discourse, " in the name of the people" reads her slogan. They (Le Pen, Farage, Trump and also May and her cronies) seem to be competing for the bigot award...

merrymouse · 14/11/2016 09:27

advised female victims of online harassment to "just log off"

I read that article yesterday - it mentions mumsnet. It is deliberately provocative and as awful as you might imagine - didn't look to read any comments. cant bring myself to link to it.

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 09:27

"The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information" - Henry A Wallace

33rd Vice President of the United States (under Roosevelt).

newdeal.feri.org/wallace/haw23.htm
Quote from New York Times article April 9 1944

As prophetic as it is chilling, and highlights just how important making sure we makes the right economic choices in order to support social projects within our society is fucking important. You have to put humans before money, but without money fascism will flourish even more.

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twofingerstoGideon · 14/11/2016 09:30

Did anyone listen to Radio 4 around 8.10 this morning? Carl Palladino (friend of Donald) was talking about deporting immigrant criminals. I don't have a particular issue with genuine criminals being deported, but his rhetoric was awful. To paraphrase: 'All you have to do is turn up and say the word 'refugee' and they can't get rid of you. Obama encouraged refugees because he wanted to 'import' Democrat supporters.'

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 09:42

John Weaver @JWGOP
The racist, fascist extreme right is represented footsteps from the Oval Office. Be very vigilant America.

John Weaver is chief strategist to Ohio's Republican Governor John Kaisch and Arizona's Republican Senator John McCain and this is his response to Bannon's appointment.

He is not a lefty, liberal and he sounds just as concerned as me.

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RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 09:52

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/secret-nhs-plans-shut-down-9254830
Secret NHS plans to shut hospitals and A&E departments revealed - is your local service at risk?
NHS England has told local health leaders not to reveal the plans to the public or the media until they are finalised

NHS England has told local health leaders not to reveal the plans to the public until they are finalised and have been approved by their own officials first, according to published documents and a new analyst from the King's Fund.

The national body even told local managers to refuse applications from the media or public wanting to see the proposals under the Freedom of Information Act.

Oh look a flying bus.

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RedToothBrush · 14/11/2016 10:08

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/13/theresa-may-facing-cabinet-backlash-over-refusal-to-deal-with-ni/
Theresa May facing Cabinet backlash over refusal to deal with Nigel Farage despite his links to Donald Trump

www.itv.com/news/update/2016-11-14/boris-johnson-trump-is-a-deal-maker-a-positive-thing/
Boris Johnson: Trump is a deal-maker and good for Britain.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-vote-drives-firms-to-ditch-65bn-of-investment-gwcfxn67v?shareToken=07a88fa541020a0e55582e59a4cb3c04
Brexit vote drives firms to ditch £65bn of investment

A separate report into the outlook for the labour market found that wages were likely to fall in real terms next year as businesses retrench and inflation begins to rise. Most employers anticipated average basic pay settlements of 1.1 per cent at a time when inflation is predicted to rise to 3 per cent or more. The survey of HR managers suggested that there would be a significant fall in living standards in 2017

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/history-teacher-suspended-for-comparing-donald-trump-to-adolf-hi/
History teacher suspended for comparing Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler

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merrymouse · 14/11/2016 10:14

I really, really don't understand this 'Trump is a deal maker' narrative. It only makes sense if people who do deals with Trump do well, and it is quite clear that a very significant number of them don't.

On the other hand what else can Boris say?

SapphireStrange · 14/11/2016 10:17

Yet from reading our Press and the BBC you would think he was the only politician who mattered - instead of being someone who has been incapable of getting elected to Parliament.

I'm more and more angry about this. How can we the public express our worries about it? I'm happy to write to the BBC, but they tend to reply with a 'fuck off,we know best', albeit expressed in the blandest of terms.

The thing with Scottish nationalism, it's about self identity and self government, as opposed to the BNP /UKIP neo racism. I saw some ugly anti-English rhetoric during the independence ref. And as an English person living in Glasgow in the past, I experienced knee-jerk anti-English sentiment, both against England and 'that London' in general and against me personally, that I could easily call racism.

Peregrina · 14/11/2016 10:19

I can't imagine that Nigel Farage actually wants to do any work, so what are the Cabinet backbenchers on about?

From the Telegraph article:
Iain Duncan Smith, the former work and pensions secretary, said: “Nigel Farage is just trying to get attention. This is an ego trip - not a diplomatic one.

“While the PM focuses on sensible, measured diplomacy in Britain's national interest, all Farage cares about is talking rubbish abroad.”

For once I agree with much of what IDS says - apart from the sensible, measured diplomacy, which I think is mostly wishful thinking on TM's behalf, but the comments about Trump are spot on.

merrymouse · 14/11/2016 10:24

www.slate.com/articles/business/the_bills/2015/10/trump_carson_bush_all_benefited_from_multilevel_marketing_schemes.html

Trump deals.

(Not the only candidate to have dealings with one of these schemes, but far and away the most successful salesman).

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