Leaves, EU immigration/FOM what is it you actually want?

[fakenamefornow]

Tourist visas?
Working visas?
No visas, just no work?
Maximum length of stay?
Funded how?

I am really clueless about what exactly you want.

there has been a shortage of British bricklayers for years.

I wonder how many went to Germany in the 1980s, and never came back ?

Sorry, my 'no visas for anyone else' meant no-one else needs visas. If they can support themselves with no unpaid access to services then they can stay as long as they want.

That is basically going to require some kind of visa carol (bear in mind visas can allow indefinite entry). You could call it something else, but you'd need a system to establish on arrival whether someone's a security risk and whether they could financially support themselves, also a means of removing people who became a security risk or stopped being able to support themselves after they'd been admitted. You would need some means of identifying who fell into the safe and self-supporting category.

Hyacinth The US has a visa free entry programme but uses ESTA to check on people. You could easily use a similar system.

It is limited to less than 90 days though, so very different to what you're proposing.

Yet if you look up ESTA the first link is headed ESTAVISAS so what is that but a visa dressed up under another name? To be visa free would be as we are now travelling in the EU - we show a passport or ID card, if our country has them, and that's it.

Hyacinth Just because the US one is 90 days, does not mean ours could not be longer - similar, not the same

Peragrina that site is a money making site that charges you to do the form. The ESTA ia little more than passport details and some info on previous criminal history and diseases. Again, we can discuss the content if you wish.

It could be longer, yes. But if it's indefinite, as you suggested you want in the post I quote, then you either need some form of keeping tabs on that while people are in the country or you accept that you're going to have people who are no longer safe and solvent but who you're not going to be doing anything about. It's one of the two. Note that the US use ESTA as well as a visa system rather than as a replacement for one.

Additionally, getting a stamp on entry really isn't any different legally to a visa. In the UK, people of certain nationalities have to apply for a visit visa in advance and others can be given an entry stamp at the airport and they're not legally any different. These are non-EEA folks of course. It's simply a question of whether you want people to apply in advance or not.

ESTA is what it says on the tin - a visa waiver
The US's own site says:

What You Need:

Valid passport from a Visa Waiver Program country.
Valid credit card (MasterCard, VISA, American Express, and Discover (JCB, Diners Club)) or PayPal to pay the US $14 per application.
Your contact information.
Your most recent employment information, if applicable.

When you last went to France, Italy, Spain..... etc. etc. did you have to pay before they let you in? Did you lodge your contact details with anyone? Did you have to tell anyone your employment details? Last time I went to those countries, I just showed my passport.

Going to Turkey I had to stump up something like 15€ for a visa. Going to Cuba the travel agency sorted out the visa for us, called a Tourist Card, but a visa in all but name. I had to fill in immigration forms, retain half, and make sure I handed that half back when I left, plus pay a fee on departure.

So ESTA are asking for quite a lot less information than would be needed in order to demonstrate that you're financially able to support yourself with no unpaid access to services. There are some visas like that in the UK and indeed the US now. They are not paperwork lite.

I would like to turn this question around and ask Remainers what they are wanting from the EU ?
I would like to know how many of the Remainers have a second/holiday home in an EU country .

This is a thread discussing freedom of movement, so if you want to broaden it beyond that topic then perhaps consider starting your own. I'd rather keep FOM, not least because I think the odds of continued access to the single market without it are dim. If it were felt EU migration needed to be limited, which is by no means a given, I'd rather have seen the UK utilise the existing provisions that we already had but didn't bother with, instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I do not own a second home anywhere or indeed a first one. Which is off topic but I don't mind just this once, in order to disabuse you of any silly notions you might be holding.

Following to see the argument

Whatwouldrondo - I have always had courtesy and respect from any workmen that I have employed . I have only ever had one botched job .
I find it disgusting that you can so easily decry a whole region of people , in your case London , as rude , arrogant and what ever else it is that you can come up with. But any builder from outside of the UK is absolutely wonderful and you call Leavers racist !

Hyacyinth Without an NI number they are unable to work, access NHS or schooling. If they are breaking the law they are arrested and deported. I did not suggest any registration, you did. Why do you want to keep tabs on them?

As a remainer who only owns one home, I would like to see the countries of Europe cooperating and becoming as inter-related as possible. I'm not wedded to any particular aspect of the EU, I just don't want to see the UK becoming an insular, inward-looking country.

People without NI numbers do those things all the time carol, frequently without either arrest or removal. And I didn't say I wanted to keep tabs on them, you've inferred that. I said that your idea of allowing people to remain indefinitely but only if they can pay for all services requires some means of checking up on people's eligibility when they arrive, you can call it something else if you want, and once in their continued eligibility. Either that or you accept there'll be people who are no longer solvent and safe. Up to you which you prefer!

Hyacinth - no I'm not going any where . All the remainers are so quick to jump on the leavers as Xenophobic , I'm having my two cents worth .
I want to know how many remainers on here have a second / holiday home in the EU.

NotDavid - I am not inward looking , thanks for the dig though. I just do not want to be part of the united states of Europe /Turkey. You have your opinion I have mine.

Jaws - who said that the British young people will not train as builders - more racist crap.

User -I did not decry every London builder as arrogant and rude, I made the point that because there was a shortage of skilled workers decent reliable firms who had skilled workers and gave good customer service were hard to source, they were so in demand that they could make very high quotes if householders could get them to quote at all.The result was that cowboys who were not skilled or even bothered to treat their customers with any respect could exploit the market. (And I would stand by my point that a lot of working class men of a certain age are misogynists, quite a lot of middle and upper class ones too but there is something about being treated with such a lack of respect in your own home). I do know plenty of people who sourced reputable companies from outside London putting them up in B&Bs as a result.I also have a couple of British friends who run building firms who have made a very good living in London out of building up a reputation for doing a decent job and giving good service to their customers. My point was that when Polish builders entered the market offering their skills at a decent cost along with good customer service then they were able to exploit the opportunity created by the shortage of skills.As to racism I observed plenty of that in Wickes, and local builder's merchants, always directed at Easter Europeans.

Its up to you what you do user, I'm just pointing out to you that this is a thread about freedom of movement so you may find the people on here want to talk about, erm, freedom of movement. I guess second homes in the EU arguably have some vague relation to the topic in that people who travel within the EU might be more likely to value FOM (with that said, there cant be many Remainers with more second homes than some of those overprivileged toffs that led Leave). However, the post of yours I initially replied to simply asked what Remainers want from the EU, per se. Nothing about whether you meant institutions, trade, migration or anything else. With that in mind, I encourage others not to allow you to derail.

NotDavid again - why is bigger better ? Everything will be governed by one little group and they will get everything and sod everyone else. Just like London gets everything now and so the rest of the country - just on a much bigger scale.

I don't have a holiday home in the EU, but it was mine and my husband's dream for retirement. Looking unlikely now, unless we come into a lot of money and can buy outright and afford all the visas and expensive flights. As a remainer, what I appreciate about being in the EU is certainly the freedom to live and work in all member states. I have lived and worked in Germany and Portugal before coming back to the UK and it was an amazing and life-enhancing experience. I would dearly like my own children to have the same opportunities. I am grateful that Charles Goerens (MEP) is putting forward a motion to allow Brits who do not want their EU citizenship stripped from them against their will to retain it - I'm happy to pay additional tax for this, and leavers can opt out. Ultimately, I would far rather we stayed in the EU. I appreciate the worker's rights (including maternity rights) the EU has afforded us, in addition to the cleaner beaches, the investment in deprived areas, the ease with which our businesses can trade with our nearest neighbours. Above all, I value being a European and being in a union with our near neighbours. I'm devastated that we are rejecting all of this. I realise the EU isn't perfect, but it has given us far more to be grateful for than our own governments over the last years. We could have stayed in and reformed instead of quitting.

Hyacinth - The thread was once again goady to Leavers by asking what exactly do Leavers want . Well I am derailing just like remainers do.
I ask remainers again , what is that you want from the EU ? How does being in the EU personally benefit you.
Whatwould - I don't honestly think that you are racist , just silly. As to you hearing a lot of abuse toward Eastern European people in Wickes - in London ? really, I am shocked I thought Londoners were all remainers and that it was the Northern plebs that were the racists.

I'm a Remainer and don't have a second home anywhere - either in the rest of the EU or the UK. Too many people have been priced out of the market in the UK. Towns and villages in the West Country, parts of Wales, the North are like ghost villages during the winter.

Back to FoM......