Leaves, EU immigration/FOM what is it you actually want?

[fakenamefornow]

Tourist visas?
Working visas?
No visas, just no work?
Maximum length of stay?
Funded how?

I am really clueless about what exactly you want.

Thank you mango - view taken on board.

ReallyTired They already do, 28000 students went to study abroad last year, up from 20000 the year before. Poland is a popular destination for UK students on the Erasmus scheme, and I know several US students who spent a year there too. Unfortunately our continued membership of the Erasmus scheme (which the EU funds to the tune of 2.1bn euros) is one of the EU benefits the government is refusing to commit to continuing (which is bad for UK universities too because some of that funding flows to them.

One of the strategies that UK universities are considering to try to recover from the disastrous impact of immigration policies on the number of overseas students coming here, and are now beginning to see with EU students too, is to open up campuses in the EU, some already do this in places like China and Malaysia.

The problem with doing a degree in Europe is that a student cannot get financial assistance. I am not talking about exchanges but doing an entire degree in a different country. Something far more radical than an ERAMAS exchange.

Here you go, were I still a History undergrad I would jump at the chance to study History at one of the oldest universities in the world to make up for the fact I was taught no European history at school or indeed any other world history
www.ff.cuni.cz/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Erasmus-guide-2016-2017.pdf

A lot of students are now looking overseas because it is cheaper than UK universities. Whilst you get a loan for study here, you are paying some of the highest fees in the world and end up with a large debt to pay off. It is making more sense to study in cheaper countries, that is why 400 students enrolled in Maastricht university last year. The bank of Mum and Dad are at least subsidising if not fully funding most UK students in UK universities now and there are students in Maastricht funding their study through part time and holiday work. Bulgaria for instance runs medicine courses in English which are attractive not just because they are cheaper but also you do not have to have a zillion A*s obtained whilst doing brain surgery as work experience to get in.

Sorry to go off topic for a minute. Bobo I'm interested to know what you think of the French system of paying for Dr appointments and then claiming back.

There are, increasingly, automated payment schemes in operation meaning that we don't need to pay upfront and reclaim. I do think that paying for appointments and having health insurance is a good thing - it's not good for people not to know what things cost. My GP charges €60 or €80 per visit, depending on what happens. It means you go to the pharmacist first!

A lot of students are now looking overseas because it is cheaper than UK universities

Our DS decided uni was a waste of money, and left college for a couple of apprenticeships, and then fetching up in a skilled role in the hospitality industry. Aged 20, not only is he debt free, but renting his own flat, and saving a little every month. As his year group that went to Uni are starting to look at leaving, they have debts to the eyeballs, no job, and will be living with Mum & Dad for years.

Proof, if it were needed, of the topsy turvy world we have created, when it's going to university which disadvantages you in life

I do think that paying for appointments and having health insurance is a good thing - it's not good for people not to know what things cost

I would suggest an awful lot of patient-led* wastage in the NHS is due to a perception that it's "free".

*NHS-led wastage is probably much more though ....

It means you go to the pharmacist first!

We are going off topic a bit, but we need a proper debate about what sort of health service we want, and how to pay for it.

They are beginning to recommend going to a Pharmacy first here too. There was a news article a few days ago about going there for a simple test to see whether an infection was bacterial or viral. If viral, there was no point in going to the Doctor for antibiotics.

I personally would pay more tax, as long as I knew it went to the NHS. I would be annoyed if that translated into more tax cuts for the wealthy.

Instead we are drifting towards the American model.

*NHS-led wastage is probably much more though ....

NHS admin systems leave much to be desired. DH had hospital appointments - he got two letters offering appointments and two cancelling them, all by the same post. He had to phone to find out exactly when his appointment was. When he got there, the medical staff couldn't have been more helpful.

For eg - shortage of bricklayers in london? Advertise for bricklayers.
Once they're here, they're here - normal citizenship processes apply.

Who decides when there is a shortage? and what prevents bricklayers from lobbying for shortages (so that wages rise)?

There are lots of good things about the NHS but free at point of access has led to widespread perception that patients are not responsible for managing costs.

And, tbh, doctors in France give patients a bollocking about smoking or being overweight and other lifestyle issues that patients should be taking responsibility because the health service hasn't relieved citizens or responsibility for their own health costs.

Mango, the flow of EU workers into (and out of) the UK pretty much regulates itself –or is regulated by the market forces of supply and demand.

When there's a shortage of bricklayers, as in the example we're talking about, more bricklayers come. When there isn't, they don't.

Market forces are brutal. It means that employers can get away with testing people like shit as so many people are desperate for a job. There was not a shortage of bricklayers in the 90s but a shortage of people prepared to be a bricklayer for low wages.

When my brother was 17 he did an apprenticeship as an electrician and was employed by a large building company. The same company decided that all their staff should be self employed so that there was no need to pay for insurance or NI. Often it's an absolute pig for electricians or plumbers having to chase these large companies for money owed.

There have been building sites with a polish foreman who only gives work to fellow poles. Or adverts written in Polish. It's understandable that such closed practices lead to resentment. I feel the answer to this problem is to insist that adverts for UK based jobs are in English so that everyone can apply for a job.

Ironically my brother has worked in France as an electrician on the houses of British ex pats. Many British people in France like having an English speaking electrician.

Market forces are brutal

Market forces are supposed to be what the Tories are all about.

As with most things the Tories are supposed to be about, that is complete and utter bollocks.

Posted this one on another thread.
Robots might replace migrants..
labourproviders.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Labour-Immigration-Policy-Pre-And-Post-EU-Exit-ALP-Position-Paper-No....pdf

There are lots of good things about the NHS but free at point of access has led to widespread perception that patients are not responsible for managing costs.

Really? Why?

And, tbh, doctors in France give patients a bollocking about smoking or being overweight

not sure what the connection with that is to paying up front.

Do you really need it spelling out, chilipepper?

If you keep going back to the doctor for the same problem and he/she charges you €50 (or whatever) a visit, and he/she tells you pretty fiercely that he/she cannot help you but that if you take responsibility for your self-inflicted ailment not only will you get better but you will save a lot of money, the message gets through a bit more quickly.

If you keep going back to the doctor for the same problem and he/she charges you €50 (or whatever) a visit, and he/she tells you pretty fiercely that he/she cannot help you but that if you take responsibility for your self-inflicted ailment not only will you get better but you will save a lot of money, the message gets through a bit more quickly.

presumably, people understand that if you pay 50 euros, you are out 50 euros. I don't think that needs explaining.

what we have to be aware of, however, is that charging at the point of delivery does discourage people from seeking doctor's help. That is distinct from getting healthier or encouraging better health. Studies in the US have shown that poor people tend to put off visiting the GP (relatively inexpensive) and then wait for the problem to get critical and go to A&E (relatively expensive).

what I asked, and you didn't answer, is why doctors here can't "give people a bollocking". that is independent from charging at the point of service.

I did answer. Are you very dim?!

A problem in this country is that a healthy life style tends to cost money - it's easier to fill up on cheap junk food. In other countries, where people are still nearer to the land, they can keep a few chickens and grow their own veg.

A problem in this country is that a healthy life style tends to cost money

Yes, it costs a fortune not smoking and drinking.

I did answer. Are you very dim?!

um, instead of name calling, read your answer. I asked why giving a bollocking is tied to payments, because it's obviously not. You can easily have free at the point of delivery and have doctors being instructed to be harsh on patients with bad lifestyles.

I also asked why free at the point of service gives patients the impression that they don't need to take care of their health, and you didn't answer that either. is there a study on that?

You've basically made a number of assertions on the negative health consequences of free at the point of service systems, but haven't said how you know this.