Leaves, EU immigration/FOM what is it you actually want?

[fakenamefornow]

Tourist visas?
Working visas?
No visas, just no work?
Maximum length of stay?
Funded how?

I am really clueless about what exactly you want.

Would remainers, still have voted remain if Britain's currency was the Euro?
For transparency I did not vote.

The EU policy of FOM was only introduced in Britain 19 years ago, in 1997. To some, it may feel as if it has been that way for ever, but for anyone over 38, it's less than half a lifetime ago, and in very recent history.

I agree with those who think it hasn't worked out well enough to keep, and don't like the EU insisting on their artificial link between FOM and international trade.

If Britain controls its own borders, that doesn't have to mean closing them, or sending current EU residents away, or being hard-hearted towards asylum seekers. It just means the decisions are made by those in Westminster working solely for the UK, so it comes back to sovereignty once again.

Once we've left the EU, yes, it's likely there will be more controls on travel and migration. But as other countries will probably construct similar conditions in return, it becomes just as reciprocal as any current arrangement.

I am grateful that Charles Goerens (MEP) is putting forward a motion to allow Brits who do not want their EU citizenship stripped from them against their will to retain it

What about everyone who had EU citizenship forced upon them against their will? Where was the opt-out then?

To me, EU citizenship is a strange and artificial concept, since the EU is not a country (yet!) and "European" is not a nationality. Clearly the plan is to become a superstate by stealth. Why else would a regional trading bloc introduce its own flag, anthem, parliament, currency, army - and deem people "citizens" of itself?

23 years ago, all British citizens were told they were now EU citizens, whether they wanted to be or not. It isn't even possible to revoke your EU citizenship, unless you revoke your British citizenship at the same time.

I'm very concerned that allowing British people to opt to keep their "EU citizenship" could result in:

• divided loyalties among remainers and make them less interested in helping to make a positive post-Brexit Britain
• Brussels having too much influence on Britain again and attempting to suck us back into the EU
• Money going from the UK to support the EU through the back door
• The waste of time for our government always having to have one rule for those who've individually "remained" and another for those who haven't
• Less incentive for the EU to collaborate positively with Britain as a whole, while they ostentatiously give preferential treatment to the obedient "individual remainers".

The EU has its own army, A4? And how many of our laws do you think come from the EU? 13% according to information around during the campaign, 7% from another source and 66% according to the leave campaign. Difficult to get factual information among the complexities and hyperbole.

allowing British people to opt to keep their "EU citizenship"

"Divided loyalties" and "different rules for Remainers" - how is this different from allowing people to hold dual nationality now? Is EU citizenship of a particularly perfidious nature?

Those wishing for a 'hard brexit' may have to compromise! It seems likely Brexit will be driven by what we can afford and also big business.

The EU policy of FOM was only introduced in Britain 19 years ago, in 1997. To some, it may feel as if it has been that way for ever, but for anyone over 38, it's less than half a lifetime ago, and in very recent history.

YY.

The EU policy of FOM was only introduced in Britain 19 years ago, in 1997

Was it? I've not really thought of it before but as I had family members who seemed to be free to live and work in the EU at least as far back as 1993 I suspect that's incorrect.

A bit of googling also suggests it's incorrect. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_workers_in_the_European_Union

Can someone point me to a source that confirms (or even suggests) this 1997 date?

It used to be freedom of movement for workers:

"...The meaning of 'worker' is a matter of European Union law.[7] "The essential feature of an employment relationship, however, is that for a certain period of time a person performs services for and under the direction of another person in return for which he receives remuneration."[8]
▪ Purpose: under the ECJ caselaw, the rights of free movement of workers applies regardless of the worker's purpose in taking up employment abroad,[9] so long as the work is not solely provided as a means of rehabilitation or reintegration of the workers concerned into society.[10]
▪ Time commitment: the right of free movement applies to both part-time and full-time work, so long as the work is effective and genuine[9] and not of such small scale, irregular nature or limited duration to be purely marginal and ancillary.[9][11]
▪ Remuneration: a wage is a necessary precondition for activity to constitute work, but the amount is not important. The right to free movement applies whether or not the worker required additional financial assistance from the Member State into which he moves.[12]Remuneration may be indirect quid pro quoo^(e.g. board and lodging) rather than strict consideration for work.[13]..."

This changed over the years following various actions & resulted in the freedom of movement that we have now.

Maastricht Treaty '92 saw big changes and altered the distinction between 'workers' & 'citizens'.

2004 & 2007, 10 central & Eastern European countries joined.

So you're right, it wasn't 1997, it was actually 1993 when the Maastricht Treaty came into effect, 4 years earlier than stated.

Still living memory nonetheless.

It's hysterical (and wholly unsurprising) how quickly the liberal handwringing over The Poor! Who Will Be Further Disenfranchised And Put Upon By Evil Brexit! have been cast aside like a used tissue now that there may be a sniff of buying one's way into the bountiful & loving embrace of the EU.

Nah, what's hysterical is desperate attempts to discredit it from the people whose actions have made it a necessity. I've not laughed so much since the time that white supremacist went on Trisha and found out he was part black.

I shan't have need of it myself even in the event it does materialise, but really, what do you expect people to actually do? If, five months too late, you're suddenly concerned that low income people should be able to continue enjoying the benefits of FOM, start a fund for them. That would be quite fitting, actually. Polluter pays principle.

If, five months too late, you're suddenly concerned that low income people should be able to continue enjoying the benefits of FOM, start a fund for them. That would be quite fitting, actually. Polluter pays principle.

But I'm not concerned.
I've never said otherwise.
I'm still secure in my decisions & choices.

I'm not one of those performing great feats of contortionism; trying desperately to square my virtue signalling, faux concern over The Poor!, with simultaneously celebrating, with smug self-satisfaction, the fact that I may be able to Buy What I Want!

Liberal hypocrisy - alive and well.

Mango it's now freedom to reside (if you're self-sufficient), study or work, is that right? I don't think anyone is allowed to claim unemployment benefits or council housing on arrival for instance? There's (at least) a two-year wait before EU citizens can apply for council housing. What do you mean by 'freedom of movement as we have now'?

Ah, so you're not actually concerned about preserving the rights of low income British citizens mango. Glad we've got that clear. You just want to decide how people respond to a problem you and yours created, and kick off because others haven't volunteered to pay for it. Incidentally, is it just Remainers who want to preserve EU citizenship that you rail against, or will you be applying the same 'logic' to Leavers doing it too?

Hilarious that you had the cheek to call anyone a hypocrite, mind. Oh the ironing!

Saddest auto correct fail ever

Oh Hyacinth!
You're such a peach!

Thank goodness you were able to convolute such extrapolation from my posts.
Phew!
Smug self-satisfaction status restored.
You must be so relieved!

Enjoy the ironing!

Fawful - not sure if it's a genuine question, or a head-tilty one.

Regardless, it's all very Googleable, and I'm sure that the explanations you can find from other sources are more informative than any brief précis I could provide.

Basically, it is the subtle differences between freedom of workers (people as commodities) and freedom of citizens (people as individuals) that have morphed over the years.

Benefits etc - I've no idea & am not up to speed on all that.

Trying, I have said that... I do not like the way our culture is changing. I'd be interested in some detail of how you find the culture to be changing.

Mango, it is entirely possible for me to both want to retain my EU-connected rights and to still be worried about those worse off than me who will likely feel the effects of a diminished economy worse than I.

And personally, although I'm supporting Charles Goerens' motion, it is largely out of principle and to demonstrate my strength of feeling about my/others' right to FOM; ideally I want FOM to be retained without anyone having to pay an individual join-up fee for it.

Benefits - I have no idea & am not up to speed on all that.

Well you should be as this is fundamental to most people who wish to leave the EU.

Are you happy with the principle of EU migrants being welcome if they have work and/or are financially independent?

As for 'ironing', I thought it was a deliberate reference to conversations overheard in the pub

Why would I, personally, need to be completely furnished with all the minutiae of every single thing to do with everything.

I, personally, have no reason to know the ins & outs of who exactly can claim what benefits in what situations & all the permutations therein.

Polluter pays principle.

I'm sure we could just claim Crown immunity now, what with taking back our sovereignty?

To answer your question, I'm happy with anyone (not just EU migrants) coming to this country if they have work and/or are financially independent.

Why wouldn't I be?

Thank goodness you were able to convolute such extrapolation from my posts.

Much as I love a compliment mango, I really can't in conscience take any credit for being able to read what you wrote. You're a hypocrite and it shines out brightly, radiantly, from your words.

You still haven't told us whether you have the same feelings about Leavers who want to retain EU citizenship, though. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's eagerly anticipating your response.

Mango no head-tilt, I thought there were 4 rights associated with FOM but couldn't think of the 4th one: reside, study, work, ?
Yes I do know it's about people as commodities, I have no illusions. I was asked by referendum whether my country should sign the Maastricht treaty as it happens. I was 20 and received it by post with instructions to read it. I was annoyed that they were asking me, as if I could know one way or another. The communist party and the national front were telling me to say 'no' to it (for different reasons obvs: the CP because Maastricht was all about workers as commodities and capital flows, and the NF because 'we don't want to be ruled by Brussels'.)
I voted 'yes' but I could see the CP's point. And it was annoying me to be told 'if you vote no, you'll be in the NF's camp!' and 'this is a vote about whether you believe in Europe or not', whereas it was only about that treaty (that I couldn't understand).

mango I don't believe I have suggested that you should be omniscient

As you have no problem with with UK migrants who have work or are financially independent then your problem must be with those who don't have work/money and are therefore likely to claim benefits. If this is your position then you really should know something about it, shouldn't you?

I am not wishing to argue with you, I would like to understand your position. I am a member of a lobbying group of ordinary people who are trying to present a range of views to our MPs. I will present all views, whether I agree with them or not, and these threads are very useful. Sometimes I need to drill down to find more detail. C'est tout.

Fawful, I think it's freedom of goods, services, capital and people/workers. There may be more detail within any or all of those that I'm not au fait with.