The Brexit Arms goes forth! All welcome. Leavers, Remainers, Couldn't give a Tossers, & openly gay athletes.

[surferjet]

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majority as nationalistic loons who can't bear to be told that they are going to have to accept more of any foreigners for the economic good

Ah yet another tender show of concern for people who have been put out of work by competition from the EU. People who have lost jobs, and work, whose families are now eating from food banks. Nice.

I think it is absolutely correct to ask whether we do indeed share common values with what presumably must be the majorities in both Poland and Hungary

Yes, questions to be asked indeed. Hopefully not relevant ones for much longer however.

"I am really fascinated how people come to these studies when its nigh on impossible to pin down the massive transient population we have in the UK."

But there isn't a massive transient population within the UK is there? The transient population make up a very small number of the permanent EU residents of the UK, and as you say they are transient they are far less likely to have impacts on wages etc.

Frank Field, the lovely Labour MP who made a plea pre Ref Vote Leave for the Poor

And how will price rises on food help 'the Poor'?

Hope you heard Suzanne Evans fighting your Brexity corner so eloquently on the Today Programme this morning, Leavers! Bringing judges under control - that sounds nice and democratic, doesn't it? sounds like the sort of country anyone would want to live in!

I'm also fascinated by this massive transient population.

How is it that they manage to simultaneously take all the cash in hand jobs which do not get recorded officially, and at the same time force the lowest paid in the jobs that go through normal channels to get lower wages?

How they are transient yet also have large impacts on services like GPs and Schools?

Schrodinger's immigrant all over again.

There are some transient immigrants yes, but by far the overwhelmingly largest majority are permanent residents.

"I think it is absolutely correct to ask whether we do indeed share common values with what presumably must be the majorities in both Poland and Hungary "

And I think that you'd find we do share common values, and much of a shared European history.

But every time I read your posts I hear dog whistles, if I'm honest.

I don't support the Hungarian's putting up razor wire, but there are many in this country who would do so, Katie Hopkins for example advocated shooting refugees.

No one has their eyes shut, but jumping on one issue doesn't mean that broadly we do have a lot of shared common values and history with other European nations, who are our closest neighbors.

I'd also like to point out the hypocrisy of raising the Hungarian attitude to refugees whilst also proposing increased integration and trade with Australia, whom we do have a lot of shared history and a lot in common with too!

Former eastern bloc counties have lived behind iron curtain many years, they are emerging but are noted for general reluctance and acceptance for new comers and have a far right movement that makes edl look like toddlers fighting over a doll.

This has been noted by minority groups pre ref, this however is generally known to people who engage with issues of the day.

I think it is absolutely correct to ask whether we do indeed share common values with what presumably must be the majorities in both Poland and Hungary

This is interesting. One of the things that I've wondered about Brexit voters who declare themselves 'not racist' is how they can bear to ally themselves (for want of a better phrase) with the likes of the BNP, EDL, NF etc. Along with the fact that there was no common vision or plan for Brexit, I really couldn't get my head around people of all political shades being willing to get into bed with the extreme right wing.

Katie hopkins banging away in a paper hardly equates to a governments decision.

Or, do you think it does?

"Former eastern bloc counties have lived behind iron curtain many years, they are emerging but are noted for general reluctance and acceptance for new comers and have a far right movement that makes edl look like toddlers fighting over a doll. "

I think pot is calling kettle there.

Why is the dog making such a fuss?

Oh Liz Truss is absolutely wrong and appalling, yes. Talk of bringing the judiciary under control, however, is terrifying.

Katie Hopkins is an example of many that would agree! Not the same as a government decision, or don't you understand that?

One of the things that I've wondered about Brexit voters who declare themselves 'not racist' is how they can bear to ally themselves (for want of a better phrase) with the likes of the BNP, EDL, NF etc .....I really couldn't get my head around people of all political shades being willing to get into bed with the extreme right wing.

I don not recall the referendum question being anything at all to do with the above.

It simply asked whether I wanted to Remain in the EU or leave.

I do not, and never have allied myself with the likes of the BNP, EDL, NF etc.

Perhaps you were given a differently worded voting slip to me??

Katie hopkins moaning with some supporters is not in the same league as actively erecting posts in government.

Same here Twofingers, I struggle to understand how moderate remainers can bear to be associated with big business who advocates the moving round of cheap labour to feather their pockets? How can they align themselves with a Victorian style movement of people like mere chattels to be exploited? To treat British workers put out of livelihoods as mere collateral damage...

How can moderate remainers buy into this Federalist view of the EU with every closer union, led by leaders who clearly put this ideology above the needs and concerns of their citizens.

How can moderate remainers look at Frank Fields plea VOTE LEAVE FOR THE POOR and so easily shrug it off?

I can only think these people have much to personally loose if we brexit and much to personally gain if we stay, to heck with the rest of it.

Mango, you are missing my point. Someone questioned 'common values', citing as an example Poland and Hungary and suggesting the UK does not share those countries' values and therefore shouldn't be in the same group (the EU) as them. I was merely expanding on this (just out of curiosity), by wondering why people who ostensibly have nothing in common, find 'common ground' with other groups on some issues, and using the Brexit vote as an example. For me, not wanting to be associated with those groups and their racist rhetoric - however distantly - was a fairly major factor in how I cast my vote.

www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/world/europe/eastern-europe-migrant-refugee-crisis.html?_r=0

"Unlike countries in Western Europe, which have long histories of accepting immigrants from diverse cultures, the former Communist states tend to be highly homogeneous. Poland, for instance, is 98 percent white and 94 percent Catholic.

"There is a long history of victimization in our region,” said Csaba Szaló, a professor of sociology at Masaryk University in Brno. “We are the ones who have always been victims of injustice, the ones who have suffered. And now there is somebody trying to grab that status. People find it very difficult to accept that somebody might suffer more than us.”

“The primary reason for this difference in attitude is that we come from a region where the tradition of accepting culturally different refugees is very weak,” he said. “And now there is this wave of refugees from another continent that has no precedent, so people don’t know what to think.”

Most of the countries, like Poland, have “no proper infrastructure in place to deal with such cultural assimilation” and little appetite to spend precious resources building one, Mr. Zaborowski said.

“And the countries that have very little diversity are some of the most virulently against refugees,” said Andrew Stroehlein, European media director for Human Rights Watch"

"but there are many in this country who would do so, Katie Hopkins for example advocated shooting refugees. "

I'm not sure what you don't get about the quote.

I'd also say that I think its a bit far fetched to be shouting about big business when you look at who the backers for leave are.

We had exemption from ever closer union btw.

You really aren't doing the leave argument any favours with all your contradictions.

Oh and quoting experts now?

Funny.

Robert Biedron, the mayor of the city of Slupsk, said he was ashamed of the reaction of many to the plight of the migrants. “There is always conflict around the world and people need help,” Mr. Biedron said. “Perhaps, someday again, the Polish people might need help. Do we want to hear, ‘Oh, Poles are a danger to society, you are different, you are not of our culture.’ ”

Already, he said, he has blocked many former friends on Facebook — “even well-educated people, who I thought were my friends” — over anti-immigrant comments they have posted.

“Here I am, driving on a road that was built with European Union money,” Mr. Biedron said. “It was built with money taken from taxpayers in Italy and Germany and France. Now we refuse to do our part? I am really ashamed

No, I understood your point.

Autumn addressed it much less snarkily than I did though (post just under mine).

By the way, sincere apologies for any snidely comments I've made today - am in a grump (for no good reason) and have taken my bad temper onto this thread.
Probs best that I step away from social media until I'm in better humour!

Same here Twofingers, I struggle to understand how moderate remainers can bear to be associated with big business who advocates the moving round of cheap labour to feather their pockets? How can they align themselves with a Victorian style movement of people like mere chattels to be exploited? To treat British workers put out of livelihoods as mere collateral damage...
Well, from my point of view, I don't lay the blame for those things at the feet of the EU. Rather, I blame corporate greed. If you think the 'moving around of cheap labour' will cease after Brexit, I think you're in for a shock. We have our very own home-grown business people (eg Philip Green) who will be perfectly happy to treat British workers as collateral damage in order to build their empires. Whether that labour comes from the UK, the EU, India, China... they will still exploit it and divisions between rich/poor will continue to grow. Successive UK governments have watched this happening and taken no action. For me, this is not specifically an EU issue, but one that our own government should be addressing.