This is potentially a game-changer!

[pensivepolly]

Breaking news from the High Court on Article 50: www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/parliament-must-trigger-brexit-high-court-rules

Well, the enacting the will of the people part is what makes it interesting because of course, the people didn't vote for the hard Brexit that the govt currently seem to be trying to achieve. There's no mandate for that. Indeed the people didn't vote for any particular kind of Brexit at all, we weren't asked about that. But it's reasonable to assume that a majority would have gone for soft since pretty much all Remainers and some Leavers would prefer that.

I'm happy for how we leave the EU to be debated and agreed.
However, we must leave the EU. That was the result of the referendum. If the referendum result is not respected then we no longer live in a democracy.

Interesting times indeed. I wonder whether wee nippy will declare the 2014 Indyref a flawed vote now too...

Threats of rioting in the streets because there has been a ruling that that the correct procedures of a parliamentary democracy should be adhered to? Really? That's not democracy, it's mob rule.

Mollie123 - yes I'm well aware of the dictionary definition thank you. However, I believe that the sinking of the ship has somewhat overshadowed the original meaning.

Pensive,
You are absolutely right.. We ave a parliamentary democracy. And there is a good argument that Parliament should vote on the matter.

However, when it comes to the vote, the debate needs to recognise that a vote to reject the repeal act or whatever mechanism is used, is in fact a vote to make the Government subordinate to an outside power and no longer having the authority to govern.

So yes, MP's have the right to vote, but to recognise that voting to prevent government having the right to govern could be considered as treasonable?

The main effect this ruling will have is to delay Brexit (by at least a year I would guess).

It also makes soft Brexit a lot more likely.

I do wonder if those wishing to remain would be so enamoured of parliamentary democracy had the vote been to remain, but that a majority of MPs had been in favour of leaving?

I, in my turn, wonder whether the Leavers would all be whining the way they are this morning if the situation you outline were the case. Just as I wonder whether they'd all have gracefully accepted a loss if Remain had won a narrow victory and not raised the issue again, in the way that some Leavers have demanded of Remainers since. Well, I don't have to worry about all of them since Farage helpfully told us of his plans, but the other 17 million of them.

To advocate rioting in the streets in response to the appropriate workings of government is ... well ... we have an example of that kind of thinking across the Atlantic right now in Donald Trump.

The 'appropriate workings of government'?

I'm in favour of the appropriate workings of government. I'm not in favour of the democratic will of the people being subverted. It's not a Trump mentality, its about ensuring that a democratic vote isn't ignored on a technicality. which I'm pretty certain it wont be tbh

Oooh *Hyacynth" watch those giant generalisations there...many leavers are not whining about this at all.

(t'would be good if I could spell!) Hyacinth

many leavers are not whining about this at all.
Glad to hear it!

The best news, I've heard in a long time

Now there is hope

Never said or even came close to implying they were mythreeknights. If you look at one of my earlier posts, I mentioned that some Leavers will be very happy about this.

MaliceInWonderland78 "I do wonder if those wishing to remain would be so enamoured of parliamentary democracy had the vote been to remain, but that a majority of MPs had been in favour of leaving?"

It's not a case of being "enamoured of parliamentary democracy". Whether people like it or not that is the system we live in and that's the system we have to operate by.

The alternative is that the government is no longer bound by the rule of law and can just do whatever it likes whenever it feels like it.

Yes - those leavers with regrets will undoubtedly feel relieved. But also leavers who have no regrets but who respect the Parliamentary process with all the checks and balances, might also be happy that this is happening.

The alternative is that the government is no longer bound by the rule of law and can just do whatever it likes whenever it feels like it.

Right. And everyone should be afraid of that. There's a word for that, and it isn't democracy.

Exactly as I said mythreeknights.

Also tbh, once people get beyond the toy throwing from pram stage, I think they'll see that this might be a positive thing for Brexit. There's really no question that leaving would have more legitimacy if Parliament have been able to scrutinise it first. Granted, it makes a hard Brexit less likely than previously, but if all you want is to leave and you're less concerned about the specifics, which is true of at least some Leavers, this arguably helps your cause.

John Redwood was being a dick on the radio just now (I know that's nothing new).

He said we don't need a parliamentary vote to 'send a letter'. Er, except that "letter" will initiate the biggest constitutional change of our lifetime. Of course it needs to be debated and voted on in parliament, in our parliamentary democracy.

And what happens if the MPs then vote to block the exit from the EU, either for a while or indefinitely?

Is it just a case of "Oh well you voted but it doesn't count"? Sorry!

I respect that it needs to be well thought out in terms of effecting the exit from the EU and parliament should do that. But it seems to me that the lady who brought the appeal is hoping that it will effect a U turn, is that not the case?

Reading a biography of her it does not occur to me that she has much in common with many of the ordinary people I know. I can't see her dirtying her shoes coming around here. So in that sense I don't feel a lot of empathy with her.

It does seem a tad gloaty on the thread, and many would do well to remember that a battle won does not constitute an overall victory in war.

woodlander exactly. I'm actually really pleased that Leavers are being held to account, with terms like 'sovereignty' and 'democracy' -which have been woefully misused by the pro-Brexit side - actually being used in their proper context

sporting I'm happy with a small victory because I've believed myself to be going mad since June. I honestly thought nobody could hear reason or fact.

Same here, Yoko. In fact, I said on another thread, I'm beginning to think the whole of 2016 is all a dream, and I'm going to wake any minute now....

If the MPs did vote to block, then there would probably have to be a GE with the parties laying out clear mandates about what sort of brexit they intend to implement (or not). I rather fear that this would result in the conservatives coming up with a hard-ish brexit for fear of UKIP; the other parties are all more or less irrelevant at the moment, unfortunately.

And what happens if the MPs then vote to block the exit from the EU, either for a while or indefinitely?

Is it just a case of "Oh well you voted but it doesn't count"? Sorry!

Fuck knows. Which is just one of the reasons why I didn't feel able to give serious consideration to voting Leave. No plan.

But that sort of uncertainty is what happens when you make something not remotely binary appear binary and don't bother even trying to settle any constitutional questions beforehand. If that happens, the blame will not fall solely nor even primarily on the lady who brought the appeal. As I said upthread, this is a risk people took when they chose to vote Leave with no receipts produced, basically.