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Brexit

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Xenophobia: Brexit official discourse

525 replies

jaws5 · 04/10/2016 21:23

Hearing one minister after another at the Tory conference today has made me feel ill: So foreign doctors are welcome UNTIL more British doctors have been trained in a hurry, foreigners will be treated as second class citizens when applying for a job, and EU nationals are one of the "main cards" in Brexit negotiations. I cannot imagine any other country in the world where the official discourse of the governing party would include these statements without it being condemned as xenophobic. Shame on them.

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jaws5 · 05/10/2016 13:38

wrong so you are saying that your town has been "swamped" with EU migrants and there is a development being built that you don't like, and houses are being built for those EU migrants to buy, and the look of it doesn't go with the rural feel of the village, therefore the EU has affected you negatively?

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 13:41

Mrs May just went on about meritocracy.

This means she WANTS people to achieve and if achievement means university this is something to be encouraged not shot down as something that is somehow dirty.

The difference is she wants kids of people with less opportunities to also go to university.

She will first have to deal with the attitudes that somehow its a betrayal of your class or upbringing to do that. Something that is part of the problem to do with certain groups of kids not achieving. If the environment you grow up in, is so dismissive and disparaging of university education do you think this encourages people to break out of that social expectation or to sell themselves short too?

In theory she wants ALL parents to aspire to their kids doing Erasmus or studying abroad to further themselves. I'm not sure I see her demonstrating this when Brexit threatens this for all - not just the middle classes who currently get this opportunity disproportionately.

I am from the north and am middle class. Sometimes it feels like being trapped by two worlds; the southerner who looks down on the north as some kind of backward area (I really have come across individuals who refuse to visit friends in the north) and by working class people who think you are a snob before you even utter a sentence because they know your postcode. Its always frustrated me and never made me feel completely comfortable within my own country, if you don't 'belong'. The judgement is there and never goes away in the eyes of some. You are not one of 'their own'.

There has to be a shift in thinking by both in order to make change. Its entrenched in society - perhaps this is why immigrants fair better as the attitudes to class / regionalism are so deep. The working class can be their own worst enemy in this, and it needs to be pointed out and challenged as it holds back many as much as the actual lack of opportunity.

The EU referendum has brought this out even more. And May is actually still contributing to that, in her efforts to try and 'bridge' the divide and show that she somehow understands in the language she uses and the politics of the last couple of days. She doesn't get it. At all. She is still alienating rather than bringing people together.

This is why Brexit is probably doomed to fail for that reason. There is a short sightedness to it which sounds grand and moral to many but also doesn't encourage people to respect either other and to place value on excelling. It suggests that anyone in a position of success, has only got there because of their background as much as kids of underprivileged parents are sold short and therefore should be written off too. They haven't got great things to offer and their opinion is less worthy because they didn't face the same challenges. Their expertise and experience is worthless.

I find it depressing that being liberal or educated is being used as a byword for snobbery and elitism. Its not that simple. And ironically, education is more closely associated with socialist values rather than capitalism and individualism. The Tory Party is middle class in its base - but that's less educated older middle classes.

Stop treating education as a bad thing. Its not. Its entrenched snobbery, reverse snobbery and lack of opportunity.

TheElementsSong · 05/10/2016 13:42

I suppose this sort of thing, being directed at people who are expressing genuine concern about the direction of politics in this country, and their own fears as migrants, is not sneering, not at all, no...

Biscuit just listen to yourselves and get a grip on reality.

people DO want the changes that are happening. That's democracy. Got to love it! Grin

WrongTrouser · 05/10/2016 13:44

What's the point of saying that jaws? What is achieved by doing that?

Why do I waste my time? I am not going to bother arguing with people who are going to put words into my mouth. I quite clearly said what the concern is. Please find another strawman to argue with.

WrongTrouser · 05/10/2016 13:51

Peregrina yes, I am sure similar areas voted in different proportions, and I am not saying that this is a more or less important issue than any other. I was just giving as an example in reply to a request for a negative effect of being in the EU.

jaws5 · 05/10/2016 13:54

wrong I was asking for clarification as you just link a new housing development that you don't like to the EU.

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jaws5 · 05/10/2016 13:55

I still don't understand it, apart form it being a different version of "out with immigrants"

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ScaredFuture99 · 05/10/2016 13:59

Hmm this thread seem to have moved yet again on discussion the rights and wrongs of Brexit.

Tbh this is in the past. A vote has been done and people have voted out. So really it's a bit redundant now.
However what the population as a whole hasn't voted for is what sort of Brexit they want. What sort of immigration policy. They haven't voted for TM to be in power nor have they voted for her policies. Why aren't people discussing that (not Brexit tbw but how democratic or not this whole situation is)

I'm worried about what her decisions means. What she will be able to do with it. I dont care if she is conservative or ukip or labour. Regardless of the party and actually regardless of the country, I would be worried about any decisions like this.
And I worry too about what she has NOT said, such as xenophobic attacks being illegal and unacceptable. Protection of foreigners in the country according to the British laws.
Again what I see around me is acceptance of what she says. Why?

jaws5 · 05/10/2016 14:02

That was the point of this thread scared, until someone told us to get a grip! Smile

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lifeistooshort · 05/10/2016 14:04

agree with you OP absolutely shocking. I am a EU citizen have worked in and loved this country for 17 years and I just can't recognize it. What next? Getting foreigners to wear yellow stars?

WrongTrouser · 05/10/2016 14:06

Okay jaws, you are right, I am wrong. 70% of people where I live are idiots. I am racist and so is almost everyone I know round here. Anyone who values any aspects of where they live and doesn't want to lose them is a backward looking, xenophobic fool. Brexit is an awful idea, the EU has been fantastic for working class people, anyone who says otherwise is a bigoted, uneducated idiot.

I will now go off and campaign wholeheartedly to stay in the UK and I'm sure any leave voters reading this thread will do likewise.

Thank heavens I have had the benefit of your wondrous insight to see the error of my ways.

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 14:06

She will first have to deal with the attitudes that somehow its a betrayal of your class or upbringing to do that. Something that is part of the problem to do with certain groups of kids not achieving. If the environment you grow up in, is so dismissive and disparaging of university education do you think this encourages people to break out of that social expectation or to sell themselves short too?

I think you are right here, Red, and it's something of an elephant in the room. It's something which Theresa May, is spectacularly ill equipped to deal with. Someone like Justine Greening - comprehensive educated from a poor area, Rotherham, if I am correct - may have a better finger on the pulse. It's interesting that she is supposed to be lukewarm towards the reintroduction of Grammar schools.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 14:09

Local authorities have to plan for house building to meet local demand. Because of being in the EU and high immigration numbers, the calculated projected figures for the increase in population are very large in this area. Because of this, the local plan for this area (pretty rural, smallish market towns, small villages etc), which is currently being drawn up includes huge swathes of new houses, often in huge estates and often next to fairly small rural villages. Local councils cannot just decide to ignore the projected figures, or set lower house building targets or they will be penalised in various ways by the government. In any case, if you have a large increase in population, you need more houses so that would not solve the need for housing.

Smallish markets towns are attractive to house builders. They mean more profit. These great huge estates are not being built in the same way in areas which are 'less attractive' shall we say.

In the last ten years our market town, has had three huge estates built. I live on one. Its not EU migrants moving here. Its southerners from the home counties moving north as more job opportunities open up. Its happening everywhere that's 'nice' whilst other places are frankly left to rot, instead of renewing areas or building on brown fields sites.

Local government are building because they have to and are not forcing builders to invest in 'worse' areas. And when they do invest in renovation, this is known as gentrification and is deemed a bad thing too.

Its got fuck all to do with the EU in the vast majority of cases and everything to do with poor local government and lack of understanding at higher government level. Its to do with investment into certain areas rather than areas that need it more due to lack of opportunity. Its due to poor planning.

I could bore you to tears on the subject.

The EU is not perfect, but its being blamed for so many issues which are not within its remit and are the preserve of our national government. All we've done with Brexit really is give that same government more to fuck up.

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 14:09

Peregrina yes, I am sure similar areas voted in different proportions, and I am not saying that this is a more or less important issue than any other. I was just giving as an example in reply to a request for a negative effect of being in the EU.

I would be hard pressed to say that all the house building was as a result of EU policies. IMO, it is more to do with an overheated south - east England economy and with Londoners being priced out of their own market, so moving out to towns within an hour's commute.

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 14:14

Cross post Red - we are saying virtually the same thing.

In my case, I moved to my area, just south of Oxford just before the high speed trains were brought in, in September 1976. This brought Paddington to within 45 minutes commuting time from Didcot, from something like an hour and ten minutes before. By the November, property prices had shot up, as a result.

Now the line is being electrified.......

IamWendy · 05/10/2016 14:18

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smallfox2002 · 05/10/2016 14:21

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IamWendy · 05/10/2016 14:32

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smallfox2002 · 05/10/2016 14:39

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ScaredFuture99 · 05/10/2016 14:49

wrong I don't think anyone is an idiot or stupid.
I believe that people have voted for what they thought was best. And I want to think they did so with their best knowledge and with the best intentions.

Can we move on from the retrorockets that voting Brexit was right or wrong? Because, a far as I can see now, the U.K. will get out of the EU.

So I'm wondering now what you think about TM decisions, what she has said and hasn't said and why you are or nit confortable with it.
Does it represent what you voted for? Do you think it represent what Keavets voted for? Is that democratic (not the EU. The U.K. Does t ha d a say anymore anyway. But in the now and here. Is the process we are going through democratic?)

ScaredFuture99 · 05/10/2016 14:56

Red I fully agree with your analysis of what happens in the North.
I'm there too a do have seen exactly what you are describing, incl how the class system stops people from wanting to acheive the best. Also how being educated is seen as snobbery etc... I've hear people putting down Durham
University fur example fur being unusable or just too theoretical etc.., in effect yes inverse snobbery.

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 14:58

We are back to the question, which we went over a couple of months ago, of what Leavers voted For. It was hard to get answers then.

Curb immigration - OK, but in most areas which voted for this, it won't make the slightest bit of difference because they don't have many immigrants. It's unleashed some nasty xenophobia, with few in authority speaking against it. Is that what you voted for? If not, what are you, not the other guy or the politicians, but you, doing to stop it?

Sovereignity - we now have a government proposing to pass laws without debate in Parliament. Is that what you voted for? What protests are you making to your MP to say that this is not democracy?

NHS - the promise was immediately reneged on. Now we have heard the Tories making noises about non-UK doctors not being welcome, but swiftly trying to backtrack when they were immediately called out on their racism. Will you be happy when your local A & E closes and you have an hour's journey to the next hospital? What if it's your Dad who has the heart attack and dies for want of prompt attention? Are you going to be happy? What are you going to do about that?

CousinCharlotte · 05/10/2016 15:04

As far as I can see we're fast becoming a totalitarian state Sad

Waytogojo · 05/10/2016 15:17

Many out votes were a vote for change, a vote against the status quo. So in effect this is being delivered. Frustrating for remainers that there were no defined requirements except less of what they had and more of something different.

smallfox2002 · 05/10/2016 15:17

Don't forget to add the anti TTIP crowd in there, we're going to get it anyway according to Liam Fox.

It seems that those who voted for Brexit may not get what they want for after all, except of course leaving the EU, but without their reasons, that decision just looks foolish.

Unicorns for all.