Xenophobia: Brexit official discourse

[jaws5]

Hearing one minister after another at the Tory conference today has made me feel ill: So foreign doctors are welcome UNTIL more British doctors have been trained in a hurry, foreigners will be treated as second class citizens when applying for a job, and EU nationals are one of the "main cards" in Brexit negotiations. I cannot imagine any other country in the world where the official discourse of the governing party would include these statements without it being condemned as xenophobic. Shame on them.

Who punched him?

"It is not clear whether the row was over Mr Woolfe's admission that he had considered defecting to the Tories after being 'enthused' by Theresa May's new direction."

It's quite weird isn't it Corcory ? I have only ever voted Labour or once or twice Green (Blair anger protest vote), and now people who don't know me assume I am must be some sort of rabid Tory/Ukipper.

"Ukip spokesman Gawain Towler said: “Steven Woolfe MEP was taken suddenly ill in the European parliament building in Strasbourg this morning. He has been taken to hospital in the city and he is undergoing tests.”

Hope he will get the best of care and support from those EU doctors and nurses.

Helmet

No, it wasn't a "right wing vote". I don't see the EU as a bastion of socialist values. I did expect that we would see the government move to the right if Brexit won, but we will still be having general elections and then it is up to the population to decide who they want to run the country.

Yes it was. I'm sorry you didn't work that out.

Do I say, "no it wasn't" now?

We will have to disagree. That is the whole point I am trying to make. If people cannot move on from "I am right and you are wrong" and accept that people have different experiences and values, it is a sorry state.

Your point was that a lurch to the right and an increase in bigotry and racism is much more likely if people can't move passed the anger and division caused by the referendum.

My point is that your vote did that not mine.

And yes, I am still angry.

WT I think you are right on much of that.

There is a lot of:

Is it to say (and I am exaggerating here to make my point, I know this is not how everyone thinks but it is the view expressed by some, even on this thread), well I disdain you for voting leave, I think I understand all about your life, and experiences even though I don't know you and I will henceforth call you a racist, ignorant, resentful, jealous, uncultured bigot with whom I have nothing in common and I will insult every time you try to speak about your views?

HOWEVER I do counter that by also saying that where there is also a lot of defensive tribalism going on.

I will exaggerate in the same way here.

You can not understand me, nor do I want you to because you are not like me. I do not want your understanding as I see that as patronising. I do not know you and I don't want you to know me either. We have nothing in common. I distain you for your background and voting remain. I want to stay loyal to those I surround myself with and to engage with you is a betrayal of them and my history. How I feel is important. I want dignity and respect.

(Interestingly Arab Spring was about dignity and respect not democracy when reasons were examined. Its part of the on going issue re: power now in many parts of the world)

And of course, May has said all these things that reinforce that too.

I get it, I understand it, but the defensive has to give and there has to be an understanding that, even if there is distain for the working class from parts of the middle class, there is also people just don't see it like that at all, and just want to be friends and find that common ground. As I said upthread, I've come across the stupid tribalism a lot - you don't have to say something you are judged from where you live first because it relates primarily class. Its why the UK have fallen first in the wave of right wing feeling across Europe as it was easier to exploit.

Its also why NI and Scotland - with their own extra senses of identity have voted differently. Their strong sense of self identity - which they have not lost despite being part of a bigger union (see important point here) protected them from the attack on class.

The point is, that the English working class has to give the middle class a chance too. And yep the government are playing divide and conquer. Listen to what May says - its all about identity - not policy.

The government have worked this out. All this 'if you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere' stuff? Its about identity.

A report on the referendum is out today:

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Latest referendum analysis from British Election Study data: -- people identify Leave & Remain more than with party
"average person identified more closely as a remainer or leaver than they did as a supporter of any political party"
After vote Remain voters "strength of identity with Remain campaign increased dramatically", Leave dropped slightly:
www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/new-eu-referendum-british-election-study-data/

The Tories have realigned themselves accordingly.

That's the problem here. No discussion, just people saying I'm right your wrong and in no uncertain terms.
Helmet's posts exemplify that!
Wrongtrousers - you and I probably would be considered far apart as far as politics are concerned but both voted leave and I know several other people on the remain side on these boards who have voted conservative so I don't consider my vote to leave a 'right wing' decision.

I'm incredibly curious about whether or not I'm considered a foreigner an immigrant or anything else. UK birth certificate, Irish Accent, and have paid taxes in both countries. Any ideas?

I don't consider my vote to leave a 'right wing' decision.

Did you tell Theresa that? Because that's not how her government sees this.

WriongTrousers I agree with you that a lot of people dind't vote for a right wing party/stance nor did actually vote against immigration as such. A lot of people vote about Europe too.

And that's why I have a massive issue with TM being in charge of dealing with Brexit.
Because people voted for different reasons and wanted different sort of outcomes.

Instead TM has decided that she knows best, is refusing to even talk to MPs about what she is planning to do but is nicely paving the way to a hard Brexit because she is annoying so many of the other EU states, esp Eastern countries, that few of them will be happy to support a softer Brexit. It's a really big problem.

Red I agree that actually the Brexit vote was an issue with respect in a lot of the areas where I live (NE). That's probably the reason why areas with the lowest immigration levels have voted OUT when the ones with the highest immigration levels have voted IN.

I think Helmet is still very angry like a lot of the Remainers that have seen a lot of insults thrown at them. (I also have seen a lot of Leavers being angry, usually for similar reasons but they now have the 'authority' coming from having gained the small majority).

A lot of people have been silenced during the campaign, being told yoou shouldn't listened to experts (we are on the same line with TM discourse about 'intellectuals' btw), being told it was project FEAR etc... So now that what they thought would happen happens, they, understandably, angry that they were silenced.

I remember arriving in the UK from France and finding the 'laissez Faire' here amazing. No hard rules as to how much you can have on air during elections, advertising blabla. Everything was 'self regulated' and no one was going of the rails. A breath of fresh air.

This election has shown WHY it is essential to have some very strong guidelines so that ALL parties can be heard and have the same amount of time on air, TV, radio, papers. Remainers might feel that strongly angry about it now.
It would have avoided lies and racists/xenophobic comments to go unnoticed etc...

Sorry it should read

Remainers might NOT feel so strongly angry about it

Anyway it's kind of funny, but in a sick way.

A thread that is all about the xenophobic rhetoric coming from our government, on which there has been extensive discussion about how this is being perceived as (who'da thunk it?) xenophobic by many observers including (gasp) foreigners and foreign governments.

The responses from Leavers as far as I can tell have fallen into two categories:

(1) Hahaha, this is great, this right wing stuff is exactly what I voted for, I am absolutely delighted that foreigners are feeling frightened and unwelcome and maybe I'm kind of squeezing my thighs rhythmically together at the thought (OK, I exaggerate );

or

(2) Let me Leavesplain to you that because I voted for fluffy reasons, therefore whatever government ministers have been saying can't possibly have been xenophobic at all - so your feelings of being unwelcome and vulnerable are not valid. In fact, how dare you associate me with such ghastly sentiments - you're a nasty name-calling bully!

*I don't consider my vote to leave a 'right wing' decision.

Did you tell Theresa that? Because that's not how her government sees this*

TheElementsSong

I don't believe that is how TM sees it, I believe that is how she is trying to present it.

If everyone who voted leave is painted by everyone else as wanting right wing, bigoted, xenophobic policies, and is continually silenced by name calling every time they dare open their mouth, then it is going to be very, very easy for TM to say that the majority support her policies.

We need to be able to say, no, we don't want these policies, that's not why we voted to leave the EU. There was only one question on the ballot paper.

Everyone who doesn't want these policies needs to be able to say so. If every time a leave voter tries to express non-bigoted, right wing (etc, etc) reasons why they voted out or to discuss Brexit or the current situation, they are called a liar and a racist by remainers, or shut down - then this is playing into TM's narrative, that she has support for a right wing agenda, isn't it?

No one is forcing any EU nationals to stay here. Life is very globalised now. I'm British, but I've lived in South America and Asia. The world is such a small place that you can really set up shop where you like and get on. If you don't like what Britain has become then leave. I would not stay in any place whose values I fundamentally didn't agree with.

Is it not nasty name calling to accuse someone of racism who is not racist?

is continually silenced by name calling every time they dare open their mouth

How are posters being silenced exactly? Even if there were 117 posts of, as you claim, actual name calling, does this prevent them from posting as well? I am honestly gravely disappointed with how this thread, like so many others, has turned out - plenty of complaints about people being mean and shutting down discussion (while, of course, being able to type about people being mean and shutting down discussion).

We need to be able to say, no, we don't want these policies, that's not why we voted to leave the EU.

Well, I hope you've been writing profusely to your MP.

If every time a leave voter tries to express non-bigoted, right wing (etc, etc) reasons why they voted out or to discuss Brexit or the current situation

This thread is discussing the current situation. This current xenophobic, anti-elitist, anti-intellectual, fascist-inclined situation. And now what you're telling me is that this situation is the fault of Remainers for pointing it out in the first place because either we've called it into existence like Voldermort or we're somehow stopping reasonable Leavers from typing rebuttals on the internet?

I'm just pondering this on the westministenders thread.

I think the political axis has shifted from left - right to liberal - authoritarian.

Its best demonstrated on this site:
www.politicalcompass.org/uk_eu_referendum2016

The site also has a test for people if they want to see where they stand.

There is also a graph for the 2015 Election, which includes greens, snp NI parties and plaid.
www.politicalcompass.org/uk2015

element I have a no. 3 from real life.

This morning my partner shared our concerns with a close friend/relative who voted Leave, making a specific mention of the proposed listing of foreigners. Well, our friend blamed.... The EU for creating this mess in the first place!

lost I agree with you on paper.
However I do resent being told to just go somewhere else if i'm not happy when the UK is the country I have the longest in my life, my children are born in the UK and know nothing else and my DH is British and struggliong to move even 100 miles away from where he was born...
Besides, the effect of these laws/decision will not affect just 'foreigners' but the whole of British people, despite what a lot of people seem to think.

And there is no way that half of the british population can just 'moved away to another country' anyway.

So the answer isn't to just go away but solve the issue internally.

Alan Travis ‏@alantravis40
On requests for school pupils nationality and country of birth this from Nick Clegg's former chief of staff raises concerns:

Tim Colbourne @twrc
@Glenn_Kitson I used to work in gvt, saw the genesis of this. Part of Home Office push to create a 'hostile environment' for immigration

Rudd's speech designed to scare people and make people feel uncomfortable. It was probably never intended to be implemented (I think). Just get headlines and make people 'go back to where they came from' or never come here in the first place. A method of trying to reduce the immigration figures without changing the law. It suggests we are headed for 'closed' rather than 'open' society.

You Gov have a poll out re proposals over listing foreign workers - see two pictures.

Btw, there is also a political compass chart for the US Election. Trump is almost at exactly the same point as UKIP are. Explains Putin love in going on at the moment too.