Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

-------------------

But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

-------------------

Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

-------------------

In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

-------------------

In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
lalalonglegs · 04/10/2016 18:59

It is astonishing that that piece was written by a man who died almost 70 years ago.

twofingerstoGideon · 04/10/2016 19:01

Prof Michael Dougan has made a new video "looking at the government's ideas for ensuring continuity and certainty in the legal system during the process of leaving the EU."
here

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 20:44

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
I understand Scotland government may intervene when the London and Belfast Article 50 cases get to Supreme Court, as interested party.

www.solicitorsjournal.com/news/201610/judicial-review-lawyer-hits-back-theresa-may%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%98inflammatory%e2%80%99-brexit-comments

Responding to the attack, David Greene, senior partner of Edwin Coe, which is acting for one of the applicants in the article 50 challenge, said: ‘Mr [Deir] Santos is asserting his constitutional right to challenge the authority of the government to exercise a right to serve the article 50 notice.

‘To accuse him and others of being anti-democratic is both wrong and inflammatory. It will merely serve to increase the heat in this debate which turns on simple legal and constitutional principles.

‘The government should not criticise the challenge but welcome it because it will give certainty to the article 50 process. This is about the rule of law. That issue should stand above all others. It is a principle that the government should uphold and not damn.’

(Its depressing to see that my understanding of the law and what May is up to, seems to be being interpreted in the same way by those making the legal challenge).

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 04/10/2016 20:55

That Orwell passage is brilliant. Does anyone know where it's from?

What's Amber Rudd playing at? Well, clearly only looking out for her career but...

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 20:55

UKIP maybe about to be very English. Diane James allegedly is about to do a Sam Allardyce.

Michael Wilkinson ‏@ThatMichaelW
Diane James quitting as #UKIP leader after 18 days? That's what is being suggested tonight. Watch this space...

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 04/10/2016 20:59

Found the whole Orwell passage now

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 21:03

www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19461115.html
I think this is the full thing.

"As I Please" was a series of articles written between 1943 and 1947 for the British left-wing newspaper Tribune by author and journalist George Orwell.

Interesting to see the context actually.

Harry Cole ‏@MrHarryCole
Told Diane James has been deeply unhappy for personal reasons with her new role and has walked. Ukip spin operation gone to ground.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 04/10/2016 21:07

Well not that I will sympathise with Diane James, but Farridge said he was retiring to spend more time with his money and hob-nob with Trump get his private life back, and hasn't shut up since.

AnyTheWiser · 04/10/2016 21:10

Just seen that announcement on Telegraph:

Diane James "quits" as UKIP leader

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 21:12

Isabel Oakeshott @IsabelOakeshott
I understand that when Diane James signed her official declaration as UKIP's new leader she added the Latin words "under duress"

You could not make this shit up.

www.nytimes.com/2016/10/05/world/americas/colombia-brexit-referendum-farc-cameron-santos.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0
NYT piece on referendums and democracy.

Though such votes are portrayed as popular governance in its purest form, studies have found that they often subvert democracy rather than serve it. They tend to be volatile, turning not just on the merits of the decision but also on unrelated political swings or even, as may have happened in Colombia, on the weather. Voters must make their decisions with relatively little information, forcing them to rely on political messaging — which puts power in the hands of political elites rather than those of voters.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 21:15

Henry Mance ‏@henrymance
To be fair, Diane James did say we should be prepared for a snap election #ukip

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 4m
If anyone involved in UKIP is reading this, would you mind checking your phone? Quite a few of us are trying to get in touch.

Douglas Carswell MP ‏@DouglasCarswell 11m
In the middle of supper. Not taking calls about UKIP stuff. It's shepherds pie, by the way

OP posts:
Kaija · 04/10/2016 21:15

Thanks for the news about Diane James. I'm just going to allow myself to enjoy that for a second before the next piece of horror in our chaotic descent into fascism reveals itself.

Kaija · 04/10/2016 21:26

So is Farage the UKIP leader again yet?

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 21:29

Is there a need for UKIP anymore?

Was Farage ever NOT UKIP leader really?

OP posts:
Peregrina · 04/10/2016 21:34

I think the Tories have stolen UKIP's clothes.

jaws5 · 04/10/2016 21:36

No need for ukip. Master stroke there...

SwedishEdith · 04/10/2016 21:37

No, Theresa May is the new UKIP leader.

Kaija · 04/10/2016 21:37

Yes, that does seem to have happened.

TheBathroomSink · 04/10/2016 21:50

Well, we haven't had a leadership election for a couple of weeks, so it was kind of due.

Farage has apparently said he won't be back even for £20 million. So he probably will. Although Stephen Woolfe might manage to get his paperwork in the deadline this time.

TheBathroomSink · 04/10/2016 21:52

Arron Banks tells me: "I think it will be Steven Wolfe by acclamation", with Farage return in interim - Michael Crick on twitter.

Tim Montgomery seems to be implying her husband is unwell.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 22:06

Liam fox has said that UK still want ttip. Where are all the leave voters who said one of their main reasons for voting leave was because they were against ttip?

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 04/10/2016 22:15

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 22:23

So I joked that James was never really ukip leader....

....and several people are now reporting that James's leadership papers were never submitted properly so technically she was never leader in the first place. Which means, guess what? Farage is still leader.

I should not make jokes should I?

Also being suggested that the times has story behind it on front page tomorrow.

OP posts:
TheBathroomSink · 04/10/2016 22:38

Yep, the times story is that she was spat on whilst going to Wales, she didn't get assurance about the party finances and she didn't have the support of the party officials, so she's not accepting the job, meaning as far saving the electoral commission is concerned farage is still leader.

Some suggestions she didn't want to be leader and was strong armed by banks/farage but they turned on her when she made Hamilton leader in Wales.

Farage needs his own horror movie franchise, he's harder to kill off than Freddie krueger.

Swipe left for the next trending thread