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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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CeciledeVolanges · 04/10/2016 13:47

Also Sapphire I will let you know when I finish it. Thank you :)
Also I used to work in the City, in close proximity to the private equity and hedge fund business. I don't any more, and I'm so glad of it because I don't hate myself as much, but all those people disliked the EU legislation, thought it onerous, badly written etc and none of them voted to leave. They all thought Brexit was an act of suicidal lunacy.

twofingerstoGideon · 04/10/2016 14:08

They could also debate the potential impact on particular industries. Finance/ Car manufacturing come to mind if we go for Hard Brexit, as does the sustainability of the NHS if immigration is now its main focus.

prettybird · 04/10/2016 14:12

Me2017 - I'll repeat the question: what happens in Scotland, given that English common law doesn't apply here? Hmm

What happens if Scotland just refuses to play ball with the "Great Repeal Law" Hmm

Fisheries is just one of the devolved areas. So in addition to Leadsom's challenge with dealing with all those pesky details, a lot of it is not within her remit anyway (can't see the detail in that spider diagram so can't see if that pesky detail is even mentioned).

In theory at least the UK Parliament at Westminster retains power to legislate on any matter, but the convention of devolution is that the UK Parliament will not normally legislate on devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. So, WM could choose to over-ride the Scottish Government's actions or in actions - but it would be really giving the lie to devolution if they did - and could give an added boost to the independence movement.

Peregrina · 04/10/2016 15:45

A gem reported by ITV:

Welsh Assembly Tory leader Andrew RT Davies made an embarrassing gaffe during his party conference speech by saying "breakfast" instead of "Brexit".

Delegates on the third day of the conference in Birmingham laughed and gave him a round of applause after he said: "Mark my words, we will make breakfast... Brexit a success."

Yes well Breakfast means Breakfast and we are going to eat it now for Breakfast.

EmilyAlice · 04/10/2016 15:47

A dog's Breakfast / Brexit.

HesterThrale · 04/10/2016 16:09

'Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.' (Brexit?)

Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland.

I think TM and Leavers do believe impossible things...

Nightofthetentacle · 04/10/2016 16:29

A dog's Breakfast / Brexit. Grin

CeciledeVolanges · 04/10/2016 16:40

The Brexit/Breakfast mistake had already been made...

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
Nightofthetentacle · 04/10/2016 16:46

frostier reception Grin Grin there's some strong punning in that quote...

Me2017 · 04/10/2016 17:10

Sorry, just busy.

Answering this "Me2017 - I'll repeat the question: what happens in Scotland, given that English common law doesn't apply here? hmm
What happens if Scotland just refuses to play ball with the "Great Repeal Law" hmm"

Well if Parliament does not pass any legislation on this then we leave the EU and those bits of EU law which are regulations and directly apply will no longer apply - eg EU regulations on vertical agreements - competition law and the new data protection regulation. Then those bits of EU law which are brought into force by an act of Parliament eg the Trade Marks Act 1994 which brought an EU directive into force will continue to apply. All those apply equally in Scotland and England. In other words it will be a mixture.

So when the data protection regulation goes for example if no new big Great repeal act, then the existing Data Protection Act (i.e. old data protection law by then) would apply unless we repeal it before 2019 whcih I doubt we will in the circusmtances. That sort of analysis will need to be done sector by sector.

On this "Fisheries is just one of the devolved areas. So in addition to Leadsom's challenge with dealing with all those pesky details, a lot of it is not within her remit anyway (can't see the detail in that spider diagram so can't see if that pesky detail is even mentioned)."
I don't know enough about fisheries law. I assume there are fisheries regulations which may be affected by brexit which are made under EU law. I presume the right of ther other 27 to fish in British waters may go if we are happy to lose our right to fish in their waters. If nothing is agreed then those rights presumably simply go unless they are in an act of parliament which would need to be repealed.

In theory at least the UK Parliament at Westminster retains power to legislate on any matter, but the convention of devolution is that the UK Parliament will not normally legislate on devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. So, WM could choose to over-ride the Scottish Government's actions or in actions - but it would be really giving the lie to devolution if they did - and could give an added boost to the independence movement.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 17:41

"Amber Rudd suggests a competition for design of post-Brexit passports"
It can only be a blue unicorn surely?

Alan Travis ‏@alantravis40
Amber Rudd says also looking at whether overseas student visas should be tailored to quality of university/college and quality of courses

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
This is Nick Timothy's idea, folks. He's suggested student visas only for Russell Group unis:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11657457/It-will-take-more-than-bluster-to-slash-immigration.html
(Nick Timothy was chief of staff to Theresa May when home secretary)

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
Context on May's EU doctors comments:
A decent politician would condemn rise in hate crimes.
But she blows far-right dog-whistle.
Revolting.

www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/david-cameron-stoked-xenophobia-in-the-uk-says-council-of-eu?utm_term=.qi9PqBk68#.ri6w6xXlg
This is the same day as the council of EU says that the language David Cameron used stoked xenophobia in the UK. Now May seems to be at it.

Samuel Lowe @SamuelMarcLowe
Dan Hannan called for UK to unilaterally treat developed world standards as equivalent to our own; says it'll instigate cut in UK regs.

George Peretz QC ‏@GeorgePeretzQC
@SamuelMarcLowe Can't see how it'd work. Would require UK enforcement bodies, and courts, to be able to apply n different standards regimes. Eg UK court would have to decide if faulty Canadian toaster met Canadian toaster standards. And would lead to drive to bottom (think pharma: get your anti-morning sickness pill approved in most relaxed jurisdiction).

Samuel Lowe ‏@SamuelMarcLowe
@GeorgePeretzQC I think he sees that as a feature, not a bug!

George Peretz QC ‏@GeorgePeretzQC
@SamuelMarcLowe Indeed. But a shrewder politician would see the "what happens when it goes wrong?" question coming.

Carl Gardner ‏@carlgardner
@SamuelMarcLowe Wouldn't it mean most UK exporters (and wannabes) would be wise to follow EU standards?

Samuel Lowe ‏@SamuelMarcLowe
@carlgardner yeah, not sure he's thought it through

This is a case, currently being heard, that potentially has significant implications for future EU-UK trade negotiations. It relates to Singapore and Free Trade Agreements.

eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/the-future-of-eu-external-trade-policy.html
Apparently, it could go either way in its ruling - its not obvious who will win.

www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2016/10/04/news/brexit-could-have-catastrophic-impact-on-peace-process-court-hears-720263/
Brexit could have a catastrophic impact on peace process court hears. Start of the two a50 NI cases.

An Irish Solution?
www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-three-state-union-may-be-answer-to-brexit-1.2734041#.V_LbTGtVVLY.twitter
Three State Union may be the answer.
Not sure I think I agree. I can't see this going down well in Ireland nor with people who just voted to leave a union to regain sovereign power.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-conservative-party-conference-is-the-new-tony-blair-a7344736.html
May the political shape shifter. Compares to Tony Blair.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/david-davis-if-brexit-goes-wrong-leave-campaigners?CMP=twt_gu
David Davis: we'll all be to blame if Brexit goes wrong
Well at least he admits that Brexit could go wrong...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-army-soliders-human-rights-law-deepcut-barracks-death-father-response-a7344191.html
Theresa May plans to protect soliders from Human Rights Law.
Good stuff. That's progress. We are in 2016 aren't we? Just need to double check.

Meanwhile in Iceland...
The Pirate Party is looking set to win the next election on an anti-corruption ticket.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/iceland-pirate-party-form-government-poll-suggests-a7344186.html
Why mention Iceland? Well its quite a departure from what's gone before after their country has been effectively destroyed by poor government. Strange things can and do happen in politics. This wouldn't have happened just a couple of years ago - they keep voting for the same people that led them into the mess.

Indeed,
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-rob-halfon-moral-mission-young-people-labour_uk_57f272dee4b0397f73ba7b52
Corbyn has received praise from Tory circles. And there is an admission that the next general election could be 'unpredictable' by Liam Fox.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
Margaret Thatcher, perspicaciously, on the need for a second vote (on an indecisive result) on the revised terms of a free trade agreement.

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SapphireStrange · 04/10/2016 17:43

David Davis: we'll all be to blame if Brexit goes wrong
Well at least he admits that Brexit could go wrong...

Quite. See also what he says about May assuring him that controlling FoM will be her first priority as PM...

I'm incensed at Amber Rudd and her 'lower quality courses'. How dare she?

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 17:44

Mrs T thing about close votes and mandates.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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CeciledeVolanges · 04/10/2016 17:51

Night it is from Hansard: I was torn between amusement and disgust...

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 17:56

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak
3 different ministers have said privately this week that we might stay in the single market after Brexit, whatever has been said....
Truth is, cabinet simply doesn't yet have an agreed position on what our relationship ought to look like...
I wish I knew WHICH three ministers. It makes a difference.

Guy Verhofstadt ‏@GuyVerhofstadt
Future EU-UK relationship must remain close & in the interest of both UK & EU citizens. We must think about the 48% that wanted to #remain

Daniel Hannan ‏@DanielJHannan
@andrew_lilico @OwenCallan It's truly bizarre, this Remainer obsession with immigration. It now risks optimising our deal with the EU.
(Said with no irony!! He's getting a few choice replies.)

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CeciledeVolanges · 04/10/2016 17:58

Where is that from Red please?

Figmentofmyimagination · 04/10/2016 18:06

Am I the only person wondering what Orwell would have made of the creepily titled 'Great Repeal Act'? I suppose now that the conservatives have royally tanked our economy, they can't really fall back on any of their trusty tried and tested vocabulary for new legislation with their not-so-subliminal messages, like the 'Enterprise Act', 'Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act', 'Small Business, Enterprise and Deregulation Act', 'Deregulation Act', with it's spectacularly inappropriate 'Statutory Growth Duty' .....

Moving on, I'm expecting to see the 'We're all Fucked but not to Worry - We've kept the Immigrants Out Act'.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 18:06

From this debate Cecilede:
hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1975/mar/11/eec-membership-referendum
EEC MEMBERSHIP (REFERENDUM)
HC Deb 11 March 1975 vol 888 cc291-408

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merrymouse · 04/10/2016 18:09

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/04/ive-spent-three-days-at-tory-conference-now-i-know-what-death-fe/?x

Includes breakfast/Brexit clip.

Maybe it's not so much legal challenges that are needed as some very distracting sausages?

SapphireStrange · 04/10/2016 18:12

Figment, no, I've been thinking that all along.

SapphireStrange · 04/10/2016 18:15

Sorry, that wasn't clear. I meant yes, I do wonder what Orwell would have made of it and I've been thinking about what his reaction would have been all throughout the campaign and the aftermath. The meaningless but seemingly hypnotic 'Taking back control' and 'Brexit means Brexit' being prime examples.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 18:20

www.newstalk.com/Northern-Ireland-could-veto-Brexit-lawyers-tell-Belfast-court

The QC for the NI article 50 challenge:
“Sovereignty over constitutional affairs has been ceded [by the UK]. It is not the relationship, as it might once have been, between a dominant partner and a submissive partner.

“The people of Northern Ireland have control over constitutional change - it cannot be imposed upon the people of Northern Ireland. If that means that Northern Ireland could exercise a veto over withdrawal then I am [asserting] that is what Britain signed up to when it signed the Good Friday agreement.”

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twofingerstoGideon · 04/10/2016 18:53

'Taking back control' and 'Brexit means Brexit'
Yes, both great examples of Orwellian 'newspeak'.
I hope you all know tthat we are committing 'thoughtcrime'.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 18:54

Speaking of Orwell.

This has just come up on my twitter feed:

Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon
From 1946: George Orwell on immigration. The man was an actual prophet

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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twofingerstoGideon · 04/10/2016 18:57

How sad to think we have not moved on since 1946.

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