Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

-------------------

But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

-------------------

Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

-------------------

In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

-------------------

In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Kaija · 04/10/2016 22:38

Here's her statement

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
Kaija · 04/10/2016 22:39

"Not be formalising my recent nomination"

Mistigri · 04/10/2016 22:53

Liam fox has said that UK still want ttip. Where are all the leave voters who said one of their main reasons for voting leave was because they were against ttip?

The one thing that May has got right is to understand that, for all the hand waving and the pious claims about sovereignty and the NHS, the majority of leavers voted out because they wanted to reduce immigration.

If leavers felt that their vote was being misinterpreted, they would be standing up and saying so - especially after today. But they're not. It tells me that these people do not give a fig about TTIP as long as German doctors (and why not Indian ones, while we're at it) get their marching orders.

I've never felt so ashamed to be British.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 22:55

Let's just be honest about who ukip two leaders are regardless of who holds the title - it's banks and farage.

It's getting scary again isn't it.

I can't remember if the ni ruling is due tomorrow or later in the week.

Btw if you've missed part of the doctors story, it's about preventing Brits from moving abroad to work too. Not just about sending the foreigners back.

It's not just foreign citizens living here who should be getting very worried.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 04/10/2016 22:57

I am 100% sure that Indian Doctors will get their marching orders. India, I gather as part of trade deals wants Visa free access for its citizens. I can just see that going down well in the current UKIP-Tory party.

I have a really nice Danish dentist - I really dread the thought of him having to leave, although he might go and retire in the next few years anyway.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 23:06

I hereby rename the conservative and unionist party, often referred to as the Tories as ConKip with immediate effect. Kippers may refer to supporters of ukip or ConKip.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 04/10/2016 23:16

And the steel contract for trident has gone to.....

.....drumroll....

.....you've guessed it.....

.....a French firm.

Obviously the EU's fault and the government could not have delayed the decision until march when a50 is triggered.

I'm sure we will hear all able how they were forced to.

OP posts:
GloriaGaynor · 04/10/2016 23:43

The goverment had to invite over Indian doctors in 2010 due to the results of tightening of immigration.

June 2010

"A shortage of junior doctors to start work in hospitals this August is forcing the NHS to try to recruit from India, the BBC has learned.

"Tighter immigration rules introduced in recent years meant many overseas medics left Britain and returned home.

"But the exodus, added to new European regulations limiting the hours of doctors, caused unfilled vacancies.

"Dr Firdaus Adenwalla, who has been involved in recruiting doctors for the NHS for several years, told Radio 4's The World at One that he has seen a sharp drop in the number of candidates applying for jobs since the immigration rules were first tightened in 2006.

"A lot of the jobs that overseas doctors were taking up were in areas where British doctors didn't want to go and in specialities that the British doctors didn't want to take up."

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 00:00

From Gloria's link above:
BAPIO (British Assoc of Physicians of Indian Origin) agreed to help the government - as long as the Indian medics were allowed to stay and get training for between three and four years, rather than the two year limit currently in place.
Dr Ramesh Mehta, the president of BAPIO, stressed the importance of allowing the Indian doctors enough time to get proper training in the UK, rather than simply use them to plug holes in rotas.
"The Department of Health said its hands are tied," said Dr Mehta.
"The problem is at the Home Office. The Department of Health is very much willing to extend this [visa] period, but (they are saying) that the block is at the Home Office."
Having failed to get the changes it was looking for, BAPIO refused to help the DoH.

Bolding mine. Guess who had just been appointed as Home Secretary when this was written. Full marks to the Indian Doctors for refusing to play ball. Let's hope if this stunt is tried on again, they will say No.

GloriaGaynor · 05/10/2016 00:10

Yep, all roads lead back to our honourable friend.

SwedishEdith · 05/10/2016 00:49

Patrick O'FlynnVerified account
‏@oflynnmep
The number of policies Mrs May is lifting out of the UKIP GE15 manifesto is astonishing. Almost like we are in power, but not in office!

Yep, we have a UKIP-flavoured government. They have 1 MP. Democracy.

OlennasWimple · 05/10/2016 01:29

the immigration road leads back to Cameron, actually: it was he who made a commitment (to net migration of "tens of thousands") that was near impossible to deliver and then charged his Home Secretary to deliver it anyway...

mathanxiety · 05/10/2016 03:20

The Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland idea is not as far out as it may look. The element of conditionality to the current unions is one that should not be forgotten, and there are older ties between the three than the unions with Britain/England-Wales. Not sure how such odd bedfellows might settle down together in a fairly close federal state or how effective a looser confederation might be.

However, I suspect common cause among NI and Scotland and Ireland too will be easier to find when the financial aspects of Brexit kick in. By financial aspects I include the large amounts of EU money in the form of grants and access to the single market of course, but also the terms of the GFA and the peace it sought to guarantee - political turmoil and return to sectarian strife would be ruinous.

I am also talking about a very plainly apparent 'England first' mentality on the part of the Tories, who are effectively running a one party state in the most populous part of the UK and will be for the foreseeable, and are trimming their sails according to the English political wind (UKIP tail wagging the dog) with no regard at all for NI's or Scotland's interests.

merrymouse · 05/10/2016 05:49

Liam fox has said that UK still want ttip. Where are all the leave voters who said one of their main reasons for voting leave was because they were against ttip

Does the US still want TTIP? I thought one of Trump's big rallying cries was that the US were being shafted by trade deals. Whether he is right or wrong and whether or not he is elected, objecting to trade deals seems to be quite popular in both Europe and the US.

I'm not sure that he is judging the mood of the room...

merrymouse · 05/10/2016 06:17

“If you ask the British people what they think in general about immigration they would say people who come to our country, who contribute wealth to our country are welcome."

Says Fox.

What does 'contributing wealth' mean? A major anti immigrant complaint was that immigrants drive down wages, but it's difficult to argue that, assuming this is the case, working for less money isn't contributing wealth. All the studies showing that immigrants are net contributors were pretty much ignored by anybody who wasn't already pro Remain.

What are immigrants supposed to do? Drop off a bag of gold and then leave? Actually that might be the idea - arrive, do job, have no access to basic services like health and education, leave.

HesterThrale · 05/10/2016 06:57

Yes merry, 'drop off a bag of gold and then leave'. Some in power seem to think we're doing foreign workers a massive favour, and they should be grateful to be here. But those EU workers I've met just keep their heads down and get on with the job, don't complain and don't join a union.

I think Fox and his ilk (business owners) like immigrant workers because they do work hard, and if they keep wages down, the employers won't complain.

The 'perfect employee', the bosses probably think.

MirabelleTree · 05/10/2016 07:06

Thank you so much for these threads, really appreciate the time you are all taking.

MirabelleTree · 05/10/2016 07:24

From David Allen Green's Twitter feed.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
HesterThrale · 05/10/2016 07:54

Mirabelle, interesting tweet. So is TM saying A50 will be started by March with any degree of certainty? Or is she just trying to shut the Kippers up while secretly knowing that legal wrangles could delay it beyond that?

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 09:01

Hester, I suspect that May is hedging her bets.

If she wins the a50 challenge she looks good. If she loses, then that's because someone is trying to subvert democracy and that's not her fault.

It fits in with what she apparently is due to say today. Yep the ConKip Conference is set to get even better:
www.ft.com/content/81944540-8a56-11e6-8cb7-e7ada1d123b1#axzz4MBpnudIC
May to attack establishment for sneering at public’s immigration fears

PM moves to rebrand Tories as party for ‘ordinary’ working class people

Theresa May will on Wednesday attack the establishment for sneering at the concerns of voters who backed Brexit because of their worries about immigration.

The prime minister, who was on the Remain side in June, will claim that the Tories are now the party of “ordinary” working class people.
“Just listen to the way a lot of politicians and commentators talk about the public,” she will say in her set-piece speech to the Conservative party conference. They were “bewildered” by the fact that 17m people voted to leave the EU, she will say. “They find their patriotism distasteful, their concerns about immigration parochial, their views about crime illiberal, their attachment to their job security inconvenient.”
The words will be seen as an attempt to win over millions of disaffected Labour voters across the country, many of whom voted for Brexit.
Tory strategists believe that many white working-class voters will recoil at the pro-immigration, anti-monarchy, anti-military views of Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader.
Last week a spokesman for Mr Corbyn said he was “relaxed” about the number of immigrants coming into the UK.
On Tuesday Amber Rudd, home secretary, said companies would be forced to reveal how many foreign staff they employ in an attempt to make them take on more indigenous workers.
But Anna Soubry, former Tory business minister, defended the hard work ethic of immigrants and said that many people who voted for Brexit on immigration grounds lived in overwhelmingly white areas.
“We’ve now gone from one extreme, where people couldn’t have a debate about immigration for fear of being called racist, and now you go to the other extreme where people like me want to make a positive case and actually take it on, and you say ‘Oh, you’re patronising poor people’,” she said.
Jo Johnson, skills minister, was meanwhile criticised for pointing out the statistical correlation between lower education attainment and backing for Brexit.
The prime minister is conscious of the perception that her time in Downing Street will be dominated by the pressing issue of how Britain extricates itself from the EU — and at what cost.

^But she is determined to stamp her mark on domestic politics by pursuing an avowedly centrist policy platform, rejecting the “ideological templates” of the socialist left and libertarian right.
^The attempt to rebrand the Tories — still widely seen as the party of the privileged — was on display all week as a succession of ministers made speeches about their determination to create a “country for everyone”.
Mrs May will say that she wants to put “the power of government squarely at the service of ordinary working-class people”.^
She will repeat her promise from the summer that everyone should have the same life chances, regardless of their background.
“We can build that new united Britain in which everyone plays by the same rules, and in which the powerful and the privileged no longer ignore the interests of the people,” she will declare.
Mrs May will soon announce a detailed set of proposals to shake up corporate governance, including plans to put worker and consumer representatives in Britain’s boardrooms. She will tell conference that she backs free markets but is prepared to step in to “repair them” when they are not working properly.
^For now the prime minister is enjoying a political honeymoon within her party, despite the deep splits that emerged in the spring over the EU.
Delegates described the mood in Birmingham as “relaxed” or even “like a trade fair”. There were only a handful of dissenting voices, such as Anna Soubry, the pro-EU former business minister, who on Tuesday accused Vote Leave of talking “nonsense” about the NHS and immigration.^
Mrs May is not the first Tory leader of modern times to try to rebrand her party: so, too, did David Cameron, who stepped down as prime minister the day after the Brexit vote.
Mr Cameron’s initial efforts were later jeopardised by the austerity programme that he presided over in the wake of the credit crunch. His decision to cut the top rate of income tax at a time of deep public spending cuts reinforced the perception in some quarters that the Tories were still the party of the affluent.
Mrs May’s fiscal priorities, a key test of her aims, will not become clear until the Autumn Statement on November 23, when Philip Hammond, the chancellor, will outline more detailed tax and spending decisions.

For now, however, the prime minister is determined to take advantage of Labour’s woes: the opposition party is embroiled in a conflict between the leadership and MPs, whose attempts to dislodge Jeremy Corbyn ended in sullen failure last month.
“Let’s have no more of Labour’s absurd belief that they have a monopoly on compassion,” Mrs May will say.
“Let’s put an end to their sanctimonious pretence of moral superiority.
^Let’s make clear that they have given up the right to call themselves the party of the NHS, the party of the workers, the party of public servants.”
The prime minister, who was on the Remain side in June, will insist that she understands why the general public backed Brexit.^
“Just listen to the way a lot of politicians and commentators talk about the public. They find their patriotism distasteful, their concerns about immigration parochial, their views about crime illiberal, their attachment to their job security inconvenient,” she will say. “They find the fact that more than 17m people voted to leave the European Union simply bewildering.”
Ruth Davidson, the Tory leader in Scotland, will use her own speech to claim that Mrs May has done more for women than Labour, which has never had a female leader. “What do the Conservatives do for women? We empower them to be leaders,” she will say.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
The thing about being a liberal elitist is that everyone slags you off but you're never in charge.

OP posts:
PattyPenguin · 05/10/2016 09:28

"Ruth Davidson, the Tory leader in Scotland, will use her own speech to claim that Mrs May has done more for women than Labour, which has never had a female leader. “What do the Conservatives do for women? We empower them to be leaders,” she will say."

Yes, Ruth, but then so do the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Greens.

prettybird · 05/10/2016 09:34

...and Scottish Labour which supposedly is no longer a branch office Wink

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 09:41

I think NI also have a woman Leader.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 09:46

Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire
Theresa May is every inch the "ruling elite" she attacks: Tory PM, Home Sec 6yrs, chaired Con Party, MP 19yrs. What a fraud

Andrew Harrop ‏@andrew_harrop
And to add to LAB's mid-week misery, Diane James quitting UKIP is v bad news for keeping core vote. Her election was our 1st break in months

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak
Obstacle to May's ambition to be PM 'for everyone', to borrow their slogan, is govt's pursuing policies some see as divisive

Jess Phillips MP ‏@jessphillips
Tomorrow I might go in to Birmingham city centre and shout, "We have more in common than that which divides us". Division killed my friend
Watch out. Is that Labour MP with spine spotted?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/housing-crisis-gavin-barwell-flats-smaller-pocket-a7344061.html
ConKip housing minister says build houses with smaller rooms so the young can afford them.
Can we dub these 'cells'?

Fancy a laugh?

UKIP leadership apparently don't like the plan to list foreign workers.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Faisal Islam Retweeted Arron Banks
Some Ukip thinking on Rudd migrant "name and shame" plan:
Arron Banks@Arron_banks
This is a terrible idea. Immigration is a good thing but we need sensible controls with net immigration no more than 50k a year.

And here is another great irony

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
OP posts:
merrymouse · 05/10/2016 09:46

Mrs May is not the first Tory leader of modern times to try to rebrand her party: so, too, did David Cameron, who stepped down as prime minister the day after the Brexit vote.

Austerity aside, hetried to make the Tories look nicer (and was probably helped by coalition with the Lib dems), but he always looked silly talking about 'working class issues'.

Swipe left for the next trending thread