Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

-------------------

But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

-------------------

Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

-------------------

In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

-------------------

In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 22:57

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
Tonight's Times p1 reveals a leak of part of cabinet discussion paper on what would happen to the economy of Brexit on WTO terms. Read here:

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
OP posts:
GloriaGaynor · 10/10/2016 23:38

^Has my country come to this?

GloriaGaynor · 10/10/2016 23:40

That was a reply to this:

Migrants are planning to withdraw their labour one day in February to show how difficult life would be without their contribution

TheElementsSong · 11/10/2016 06:46

Migrants are planning to withdraw their labour one day in February to show how difficult life would be without their contribution

That will have the opposite effect I fear - look out for incandescent howls about aliens subverting the sovereign democratic will of the noble British people, followed by an even worse anti-migrant atmosphere. Immigrants are the nation's bogeyman and they (we) will never be able to do anything right.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/10/2016 06:59

Fascinating that the official campaign was setting out official policy but Nigel Farage's promised meant nothing and were harmless. I must have missed a crucial part.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
HesterThrale · 11/10/2016 07:08

Am I right in thinking that the 2015 Conservative election manifesto said that we would stay within the single market?

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 07:18

I don't think it was made clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. Unfortunately I binned the vote Leave leaflet, but I'm pretty sure that along with the stuff about Turkey and the NHS it was touting the possibility of staying in the EEA?

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 07:27

It was about Switzerland:

"You don't have to be a member of the EU to trade with it. Switzerland is not in the EU and it exports more per person to the EU than we do."

www.gov.uk/eu-eea

"Switzerland is neither an EU nor EEA member but is part of the single market"

In which alternative universe does that make it clear that we would leave the single market? Was it just a complete non sequitur added in for interest?

Bearbehind · 11/10/2016 07:30

I don't think it was made clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market

merry if noticed you and another poster say that before and truly can't comprehend it

The ballot paper was not clear on a whole myriad of things but it did ask if you wanted to stay or leave the EU.

The single market is the EU.

Unless you were in the cake and eat it brigade (which I know plenty were/ are) you cannot possibility have thought that leaving the EU didn't mean, er, leaving the EU.

DoinItFine · 11/10/2016 07:34

The single market is not identical with the EU.

There is no mandate for pulling out of the single market.

Doing it under cover of prerogative power is profoundly undemocratic.

Theresa May is an even worse tactician than her predecessor.

And that's saying something.

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 07:40

No, the single market is not the EU.

"The European Economic Area (EEA)
The EEA includes EU countries and also Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market.

Switzerland is neither an EU nor EEA member but is part of the single market - this means Swiss nationals have the same rights to live and work in the UK as other EEA nationals."

Yes, the leave campaign didn't make sense. No, it doesn't follow that the question on the ballot paper was whether to leave the single market.

Bearbehind · 11/10/2016 07:44

doinit, I'd really like to understand this better if I'm wrong.

I agree the EU and single market aren't identical and it probably always was many leavers hope we'd still have access to the single market but that was always a 'cake and eat it scenario'

Why would we assume we could leave the eu, not adhere to the 4 freedoms but still stay in the single market?

Bearbehind · 11/10/2016 07:46

Agreed merry but those other countries have access on the EU's terms not the terms they'd ideally like.

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 07:50

Why would we assume we could leave the eu, not adhere to the 4 freedoms but still stay in the single market?

The leaflet sent out by the Leave campaign perhaps?

Bearbehind · 11/10/2016 07:52

Did a leaflet actually say that?

Motheroffourdragons · 11/10/2016 07:52

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 07:52

Agreed merry but those other countries have access on the EU's terms not the terms they'd ideally like.

Oh no, looking at the leave leaflet we don't have to worry about that:

"You don't have to be a member of the EU to trade with it. Switzerland is not in the EU and it exports more per person to the EU than we do."

Motheroffourdragons · 11/10/2016 07:53

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Bearbehind · 11/10/2016 07:54

I'd not seen that merry

Switzerland, that notorious trading giant!

It's up there with the £350m isn't it?

No one with half a brain could seriously have thought either were a done deal.

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 08:00

So leavers wanting to stay in the single market should have known that by default, immigration to/from the EU was non negotiable.

Except for those leavers who were just looking at what they were being told by the leave campaign. It is likely that many leavers (and many remainers for that matter) have only the haziest idea of what the single market is.

Yes membership of the single market is central to the concept of being in the EU, but the pros and cons of the single market were not discussed, the single market wasn't mentioned on the ballot paper, the EU and the single market are not exactly the same thing and the leave campaign used a single market member to suggest how Britain could trade with the EU post Brexit.

What did the Brexit vote tell us about British attitudes to the single market? We don't actually know.

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 08:03

Did a leaflet actually say that?

This was the main leaflet that went out just before the vote and reflected the content of the Leave website.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36014941

Motheroffourdragons · 11/10/2016 08:11

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/10/2016 08:24

Doinit she is doing pretty well in the short term, I must say. How much damage can she do before she is stopped?

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 08:26

And this is why there should never have been a referendum in the first place!

Couldn't agree more!

Peregrina · 11/10/2016 08:26

I thought Cameron was bad and wasn't sorry to see him go. Better the Devil you know and be careful what you wish for.