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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Bearbehind · 11/10/2016 08:28

And this is why there should never have been a referendum in the first place

Absolutely

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 08:43

If it wasn't clear, my 7:18 post was in response to cecile's screenshot of Bernard Jenkin claiming that the leave campaign had always made it clear that Brexit meant leaving the EU.

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 08:44

Oops! Leave the single market!!!!!!! Blush

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 08:45

'Brexit meant leaving the single'

I'll get my coat....

DoinItFine · 11/10/2016 08:53

Yes, the leave campaign didn't make sense. No, it doesn't follow that the question on the ballot paper was whether to leave the single market.

Yy

There is no mandate for leaving the single market based on the referendum result.

To attempt to push that through without a vote in parliament makes a mockery of both democracy and sovereignty.

Western democracy necessarily involves checks snd balances to avoid the tyranny of the majority.

But Brexit is becoming more tyrannical by the day, despite its extremely narrow majority.

I think May is doing really badly in the short term.

Her government should have come back from that summer break with realistic goals to negotiate a soft Brexit.

She made very poor choices of personnel in Davis and Fox. Very poor.

GloriaGaynor · 11/10/2016 09:51

Britain's negotiating position is very weak says former Polish deputy PM

The U.K. without a presence at those talks, will simply have to accept or reject whatever the EU offers. This would be true even if the UK pursued a prepackaged arrangement such as membership in the European Economic Area or the EU customs union; it will be all the more true if the UK seeks a “bespoke” deal, as May has indicated she will.

If British voters recognised their country’s weak negotiating position, the Brexiteers, who won the referendum on their promise to “take back control,” would face a political disaster. Walking away from substantive negotiations is the simplest way to avoid such an embarrassing unmasking.

Thus, politically, a hard Brexit is actually the soft option for the government. Economically, however, hard Brexit will come at a high price, which the UK will have to pay for years to come."

shutthefrontdoor123 · 11/10/2016 10:01

Why would we assume we could leave the eu, not adhere to the 4 freedoms but still stay in the single market?

Because people still have the mistaken notion that 'we are the UK, and EU countries will bend over backwards to trade with us and if that means breaking their own rules then they'll do it, blah, blah, BMWs and all that'

DoinItFine · 11/10/2016 10:07

Thus, politically, a hard Brexit is actually the soft option for the government.

OMG yes!

Everything clicks into place.

Of course. Of course.

Thanks for posting.

Snuggleblanket · 11/10/2016 10:11

So. If 'the referendum shouldn't have happened'. But it did and lots of people voted let's say...for something different to what we have now. What should that be? Because we are where we are and I do not think that there is any way that we can continue as we were. To go back to the BUS issue, if this was a convincing factor behind the leave vote...how can 17 odd million folk who voted not to pay into the EU budget, be satisfied that democracy has spoken?

DoinItFine · 11/10/2016 10:21

17 million people voted to leave the EU.

They did not vote on contributions, immigration, human rights, the single market.

They are not the winners of a competition.

The fact that they voted with a small majority of people who voted that day doesn't make their views on democracy or how we should proceed now, more valid than those of people who voted otherwise or didn't vote at all.

PattyPenguin · 11/10/2016 10:22

The European Commission is under the impression that the Single Market and EU are one and the same.

ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market_en

"The Single Market refers to the EU as one territory without any internal borders or other regulatory obstacles to the free movement of goods and services."

The BBC has a useful rundown on the difference between a single market and a free trade area.

"Free trade area

A free trade area is one where there are no tariffs or taxes or quotas on goods and/or services from one country entering another.

The negotiations to establish them can take years and there are normally exceptions. So agriculture and fisheries might be exempted, certain industries protected and some goods may not be covered.

Also imported goods would have to comply with the law of the country they are being sold in. So, for example, you could have a free trade agreement with the US but still a ban on the import of GM foods or different safety standards for electrical goods.

There is a free trade zone in Europe and we helped to create it - it is called EFTA, the European Free Trade Association and consists of Norway, Iceland, Switzerland and Liechtenstein.

The EU has free trade arrangements with many other countries in Europe and beyond, including Turkey (a customs union) and Ukraine and countries that are applying to join the EU.

Single market

A single market is like a free trade area in that there are no tariffs, quotas or taxes on trade but also where there is free movement of goods, services, capital and people.

That is why there is no limit on the number of French people who can come to the UK, or the number of British people who can live in Spain, but there are limits on Turks or Ukrainians.

Also, a single market strives to remove so-called "non-tariff barriers" - different rules on packaging, safety and standards and many others are abolished and the same rules and regulations apply across the area.

This is why there are EU-wide regulations covering a whole host of industries and products on everything from food standards and the use of chemicals to working hours and health and safety. It is an attempt to create a level playing field and a single market; this doesn't happen in a free trade zone."

Snuggleblanket · 11/10/2016 10:26

So, DoinIt. Setting aside the 'majority' and 'who voted on a particular day' ( ie the referendum result) , what in your opinion does ' leaving the EU' mean to a Remainer? Does it mean not leaving?

pourmeanotherdrink · 11/10/2016 10:33

Great link, Gloria, many thanks! Agree with DoinIt, it's all starting to make sense now. How utterly depressing.

SapphireStrange · 11/10/2016 10:36

Why would we assume we could leave the eu, not adhere to the 4 freedoms but still stay in the single market?

Partly, I think, because Boris Johnson, who for whatever reason people seem to believe and trust, said we could. Remember what he said recently? That it was 'baloney' that the four freedoms and the single market were linked and they had nothing to do with each other.

I can't remember who it was, but one EU politician had a pretty funny response along the lines of 'I can send him a copy of the Lisbon Treaty if he needs it. At a pinch I can talk about it in English.' Grin

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2016 10:38

Lord Ashcroft has tweeted something this morning regarding the Irish Border and this proposed idea of sharing it. He includes a photo of a question he asked in the HoL in 2014 about which countries have different visa requirements to the UK.

The reply from Lord Taylor:
Citizens of the following countries and territories require visas to visit the UK but not the Republic of Ireland: Bolivia, Fiji, Guyana, Lesotho, Malawi, South Africa, Swaziland and Taiwan.

So citizen can enter Ireland and cross into the UK through Northern Ireland without any checks.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/10/pregnant-women-could-be-forced-to-show-their-passportsat-hospita/
Having a baby? Get your passports out ladies. Of course this won't leave you potential at risk of being discriminated against...

www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/hard-brexit-theresa-may-by-jacek-rostowski-2016-10
The Political Logic of Hard Brexit by Jacek Rostowski (Poland's former finance minister)
Excellent article. MUST READ.

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen
If Remainers are still to come to terms with losing the referendum, Leavers are still to come to terms that they only won with less than 52%

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Does the German car industry determine German politics? Errrrm.
www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a23297/germany-ban-internal-combustion-engines-by-2030/
Germany to Ban Internal Combustion Engines by 2030

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
The Daily Express: an alternate, Bizarro universe where the Luxembourg PM's offhand comment = "EU states are planning..."
www.express.co.uk/news/world/719786/eu-borders-european-union-brexit-uk-luxembourg-xavier-bettel]]

Foreign withdrawal of labour will be taken in the same vein as others upthread suggest.

www.alexsarchives.org/2016/10/mayday-mayday/
Mayday, Mayday
Blog about hard brexit and May's approach

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-37616434?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
Hampshire UKIP councillor defects to the Conservatives.

politicalscrapbook.net/2016/10/brexit-tories-got-some-really-basic-facts-wrong-again/
IDS and Hannan get fact wrong again.

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/11/david-davis-is-driving-us-off-a-cliff-edge]]
David Davis is driving us off a cliff edge. From the angry Ian Dunt.
Analysis of Davis speech. Worth a read.

www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-tories-britain-uk-brexit-eu-deal-delusions-negotiations/
Britain's Brexit Delusions.

OP posts:
DoinItFine · 11/10/2016 10:39

what in your opinion does ' leaving the EU' mean to a Remainer? Does it mean not leaving?

To what Remainer?

Also, who gives a shit what individual people think?

There has been a result in an advisory referendum.

Our government, and our elected representatives, are now responsible for putting the interests of the country first and moving forward based on what is most beneficial for our country as a whole within the bounds of what is possible.

Statements by the European Commission are always political.

In reality there would be no EEA or Swiss/Liechtenstein arrangements if the single market and the EU were really indivisible.

GloriaGaynor · 11/10/2016 10:41

Sapphire yes it was Wolfgang Schauble.

jaws5 · 11/10/2016 10:45

What I don't understand is, in the past business has had a lot of power and say, particularly during Conservative rule. Are they prepare to accept this? Won't they try to stop economic suicide?

GloriaGaynor · 11/10/2016 10:46

Irish border issues: Brexit plan will divide Britain and Ireland one more

GloriaGaynor · 11/10/2016 10:47

I think business leaders are trying but May stuffs her fingers in her ears and says 'la la la immigration'.

Snuggleblanket · 11/10/2016 10:48

So, doinit.....its in the interests of the country as a whole...to subvert the results of a majority vote 'to leave the eu'?

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 10:59

what in your opinion does ' leaving the EU' mean to a Remainer? Does it mean not leaving?

From the leave leaflet, it could mean £350m more a week for the NHS and a Switzerland style deal with the EU.

Snuggleblanket · 11/10/2016 11:06

Merry it could but wasn't the point that the NHS could be funded INSTEAD of the EU? So could we stay in if we don't pay in? Or, does this imply that we would stop paying in ergo cease to be a member ergo leave the single market?

merrymouse · 11/10/2016 11:17

Merry it could but wasn't the point that the NHS could be funded INSTEAD of the EU? So could we stay in if we don't pay in? Or, does this imply that we would stop paying in ergo cease to be a member ergo leave the single market?

You are completely right, the leaflet didn't make sense. However, that was what people were offered. To step back now and say "oh, of course that was a load of rubbish" doesn't make sense either. It would be helpful if you could point to the bit of the Leave campaign that did make sense, then it might be possible to move forward on the basis of a democratic mandate.

DoinItFine · 11/10/2016 11:19

its in the interests of the country as a whole...to subvert the results of a majority vote 'to leave the eu'?

Confused

WTF are you talking about?

That is not even close to what I said.

But I'm done interacting with paranoiacs.

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