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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 11:14

The rebellion

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/10/a-viable-opposition-to-hard-brexit-is-beginning-to-emerge
The Opposition!

Funny how Ed Miliband is taking on the role that Corbyn really should be filling. I know there is talk of a shadow, shadow Cabinet....

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CeciledeVolanges · 10/10/2016 11:16

The Telegraph (Ben Riley Smith) also reports a Conservative MP attacking Mark Carney still having his job "despite being part of Project Fear."

I'm still afraid. It hasn't happened yet.

CeciledeVolanges · 10/10/2016 11:17

Red please do let us know what you think about post factual politics, I don't even begin to have the knowledge.
CSJ takedown still in the works for me. Apologies for not getting it done sooner, it has been a catastrophic few days for me personally.

jaws5 · 10/10/2016 11:18

I've come to that conclusion, the only opposition will come from within the Conservatives. Saw Ed Milliband on BBC earlier, where is Corbyn?

RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 11:27

Tory MP. I know that Rees-Moog has attacked Carney in another newspaper. I would if its him or someone else.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/10/broadcasters-were-biased-during-eu-referendum-campaign-not-way-you-think
Broadcasters were biased. I don't think it says anything that would surprise too much. But interesting to see presented like this.

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CeciledeVolanges · 10/10/2016 11:55

Fascinating Article Red.

smallfox2002 · 10/10/2016 11:57

Pah project fear, what a joke. We haven't left yet, and look at the value of the pound.

Your average in the country is about £4,000 poorer because of it.

Project fear indeed.

RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 13:19

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 29m
29 minutes ago

Westminster voting intention:
CON: 43% (+2)
LAB: 26% (-)
LDEM: 8% (-)
UKIP: 11% (-3)
GRN: 6% (+2)
(via ICM / 07 - 09 Oct)
Chgs. vs. 23 Sep

ConKip Conference a resounding success domestically then.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 13:25

Steven Phillips QC MP who was a LEAVE backed has written to the Speaker of the House

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Full letter from, Conservative, Leave backing MP, Stephen Phillips QC likening idea of bypassing PArliament on Brexit deal to "EU tyranny"
Two photos on Faisal Islam's twitter feed.

www.ft.com/content/1b1aabc8-f4da-3a0e-b905-4300df9a74a6
Parliament should be central to Brexit, not marginal
David Allen Green Article
The Brexit referendum was a plebiscite, and plebiscites are paradoxical things. On the surface they are exercises in direct democracy, allowing the people to determine political questions for themselves. But in substance, they provide the executive with the means to circumvent and frustrate those other organs of the state that would otherwise provide checks and balances. Plebiscites seem liberal but they can be used for illiberal ends.

and

Putting parliament at the heart of Brexit would not merely be symbolic and celebratory: it would make great practical sense. The civil service is already stretched and giving parliament a major role would mean the burden of the process could be shared. The experienced select committee and experts in both houses could be engaged. A parliament-centric Brexit would not just demonstrate that the country was taking parliamentary sovereignty seriously, it would also help revitalise the legislature itself.

But the government does not want to involve parliament or the courts any more than it can get away with. Perhaps it thinks it will lose votes or that Brexit itself will be delayed. Or perhaps it is seeking to be shielded from embarrassment if its lack of thought and capability about Brexit are exposed. Whatever the explanation, for the government to push away the legislature at the start of the great Brexit adventure does not bode well for the country’s supposed attempt to become a sovereign state once again.

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ManonLescaut · 10/10/2016 13:38

faisalslam Twitter link

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
TheForeignOffice · 10/10/2016 13:43

I have to say, a letter like that makes me feel proud again to be British. It's been a while...Grin

Peregrina · 10/10/2016 13:47

Good, glad to see people speaking out at last. Even better when it's a Leave voter saying that these plans are not being carried out in his name.

I have just emailed Anna Soubry to tell her to continue to speak out. She isn't my MP so I told her I didn't want a reply.

CeciledeVolanges · 10/10/2016 14:55

Thanks for sharing that Red. I like David Allen Green.

CeciledeVolanges · 10/10/2016 14:58

smallfox I suppose given the falling value of the pound it is a small consolation to me that I have no money to decrease in value in this way. And i have to pay less rent for my room in which I sit agonising about this...

smallfox2002 · 10/10/2016 15:17

The impact of the falling value hasn't been felt yet. Waiti till Christmas when inflation starts to rise, heating costs go up etc.

Then people will start to feel it. Its going to impact one group more than another :(

prettybird · 10/10/2016 15:19

Interesting New Statesman article about bias Red. "In marginalising Labour and the SNP, pro-EU membership issues such as safeguarding employment rights fell down the agenda." is the point I've made on this and other threads.

I suggested on one of the other threads not Westministenders that one of the reasons that Scotland voted overwhelmingly Remain was that the SNP had maintained a positive message - and that Scots were perhaps a wee bit more cynical about MSM after their Indyref experience. I was told that the Remain campaign hadn't just been the Conservatives and that the EU subsidies to Scotland were also a factor totally overlooking Sunderland, Cornwall and Wales Confused

Peregrina · 10/10/2016 15:34

Conservative MP and Leave supporter Stephen Phillips accuses Government of tyranny.
Meanwhile, May says No debate means no debate
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37606228

I personally feel that May needs to watch her step. She has a slight majority, she has pissed off the Scots and Irish, and can't afford to antagonise the moderates in her own party. The line is being held at present but for how long?

Me2017 · 10/10/2016 15:38

I think she'll hold it until 2020 and then win another 5 years but who knows. We shall see.

prettybird · 10/10/2016 15:39

Unfortunately I fear that that is wishful thinking Peregrina Sad

I think the "opposition" (including those in her own party) will chicken out (except for the SNP Wink).

The irony is that TM could choose to have the A50 debate and it would go through.

The fact that she isn't even prepared to do this is where, in the long term, the damage to our parliamentary democracy will be done Sad

Peregrina · 10/10/2016 15:43

The fact that she isn't even prepared to do this is where, in the long term, the damage to our parliamentary democracy will be done

I hate to agree, but you could be right. Maybe, like Nazi Germany we have to plunge the depths before things can get better?

smallfox2002 · 10/10/2016 15:47

She isn't prepared to because in parliament the vote would need to be debated, and MPs wouldn't necessarily have to vote the same way as their constituents, especially in areas with small majorities for leave.

DoinItFine · 10/10/2016 15:49

May is playing a very dangerous game, I agree Peregrina.

I have to keep forcing myself to pay attention to Brexit because it's so horrible I just want to pretend it's not happening.

Which it's not. And yet it IS bit by horrible bit.

ManonLescaut · 10/10/2016 15:56

May is treading a perilous path.

Opposition at the moment is broadly - Sterling, NI and Scotland - so not actually within WM.

But when Leave MPs and Telegraph columnists start taking issue with her, and she's alienating traditional Tory voters, she could run into problems quite quickly, given the narrow margin of her majority and the narrow margin of the Leave vote.

Cross-party opposition could either peter out or snowball depending on what she does next, and who has the guts to join them.

Peregrina · 10/10/2016 16:17

There is some evidence from the Witney by-election that they are not impressed with May. Cameron is also deemed to have let the side down. How far that will translate into votes for alternative parties, or disaffected Tories staying at home, we will find out in a week and a half's time. All parties are hoping to see a good dent in the Tory majority - which would happen anyway, because the Tory candidate is relatively unknown, and not the ex PM.