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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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Peregrina · 09/10/2016 19:00

I would pay up too. I expect my DCs to go to live in the EU, and as I get older I might well want to join them, so would stump up the cost.

I would be annoyed though, at having to pay for something which I now get free. Oh wait, I don't. I pay £300 p.a. for it (350 million/60 million *52) i.e. the money which we don't pay but could pay to the NHS divided by the population and then multiplied by 52. Still, £300 - bargain, compared with paying for UK citizenship.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2016 19:13

Around £300 is what the Dutch pay per head to the EU. We pay about £80 I think (off the top of my head figures but I am fairly sure it was around that mark as I was surprised at the difference).

John Stevens ‏@johnestevens
Ukip fight MEP @MikeHookemMEP says he'll sue colleague @Steven_Woolfe if he does not take back punch claim

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3829450/Pure-Hollywood-Ukip-MEP-Mike-Hookem-accuses-colleague-Steven-Woolfe-staging-photo-passed-floor-brawl-threatens-sue-defamation.html

This one is not done yet. I also believe that both UKIP and the European Parliament intend to investigate the matter. What is the betting that there these two bodies will make different conclusions and then they have a disagreement over that.

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Peregrina · 09/10/2016 19:24

This is so annoying though, Red. The Remain camp could have told people what a bargain they got for their £80. All the way from things like clean beaches to ease of exporting, workers rights protection and a host of other things.

It's probably too late now, but it's not over until the fat lady sings, and at the moment, the opera seems to be having trouble even putting on the production, never mind singing a few choruses.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2016 19:59

I know. I tried to double check the figures for post above (which I have previously posted on here) but I couldn't find them anywhere. Everything I googled just came up with UKIP related articles about the cost of the EU and nothing per head.

They are in this report on page 9:
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7213/CBP-7213.pdf
Brexit: impact across policy areas, Published Friday, August 26, 2016

The point is these figures are known but difficult to find, and this document was published AFTER the referendum.
The figures are:
Netherlands £305
Sweden £218
Germany £177
Denmark £143
and then
UK £89 (8th Highest)
(it doesn't list the full 28)

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HesterThrale · 09/10/2016 21:25

I'd pay £1.54 a week for the right to live, work, study, healthcare and welfare in 27 countries. Seems a bargain.

HesterThrale · 09/10/2016 21:26

Oh wait. We've been doing that. And we're giving it up. Oh.

Peregrina · 09/10/2016 21:54

Ah yes, Hester, but instead we are going to trade with the whole planet plus a few bits of the solar system, all bar the EU. A wonderful bargain.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2016 22:03

Faisal Islam Verified account @faisalislam
My understanding is Government is not currently planning to publish green paper on Brexit negotiation nor any of consultations with industry

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam

... Govt view is it is in a negotiation, any public information weakens your hand - and you can see why...

Do you think it say "virtually everyone says DON'T DO IT"?

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HesterThrale · 09/10/2016 22:20

Another Telegraph article with an opinion poll (at the bottom) where the majority of readers are voting 'I'd really rather we remained.'

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/08/what-theresa-may-did-and-very-carefully-did-not-say-about-brexit/amp/?client=safari

Peregrina · 09/10/2016 22:21

The Government published a Green paper on Education, with a load of half baked ideas which weren't in their manifesto and although education is important, it's not the number 1 topic right now.

But the key issue which will affect the country for at least a generation, probably two, and they don't want to show their hand? Much more likely that their hand is so weak, or so suicidal that they daren't show it.

CeciledeVolanges · 09/10/2016 22:21

Red the way I read Mark Elliott's blog was that one part of the government's argument is correct (they have the power under the prerogative to trigger article 50) but he has previously said that as a matter of policy and politics, they should consult parliament, and picked holes in many of their other arguments.

CeciledeVolanges · 09/10/2016 22:23

Mark Elliott lectured and taught me, by the way. Clang as that name drops (maybe, maybe I'm just the most geeky public law enthusiast here). He is a fabulous lecturer, really clear, although he uses the word "granular" too often for my tastes.

GloriaGaynor · 09/10/2016 22:59

although he uses the word "granular" too often for my tastes.

Grin how very GBBO

whatwouldrondo · 09/10/2016 23:02

The best Brexit song? I think some of the inspiration may have come from here, some of the lyrics are familiar....... m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=788645794611275&id=734568236685698

CeciledeVolanges · 10/10/2016 08:19

There's an article in the FT this morning about Wall Street bosses speculating that jobs will move there and not elsewhere in Europe post Brexit and how much it raises the chance of the Eurosong breaking up.

PattyPenguin · 10/10/2016 09:26

From the Grauniad - James Brokenshire, on the NI / RoI border.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/09/britain-to-push-post-brexit-uk-immigration-controls-back-to-irish-border

Surely, that will still mean NI residents, who are UK citizens, having to show ID to get on to the mainland. No-one has to do that crossing the Severn Bridge or on roads between England and Scotland.

RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 09:41

Patty last night before I went to bed, I read somewhere about that being the idea of the set up more of a 'mini-Schengen'. Thus the Irish Border would become in effect also the British border and vice versa.

Can remember where I read, but the principle would make sense.

Where the idea falls down, is Ireland as part of the EU, can not make bilateral agreements with the UK, and it would allow the four freedoms to continue via the backdoor. Nor does it stand up if the UK decided to leave the single market and customs union. Which hard Brexit would entail. Thus is only an option if the 27 are prepared to agree to it.

If as you suggest that it was restricted to the island of Ireland then yes it would mean that Irish and NI people could in theory be discriminated against due to border controls (could be fixed by an Irish / British lane?).

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PattyPenguin · 10/10/2016 09:49

Would an Irish / British lane work? They would have to have spot checks to ensure non-Irish/British citizens didn't just pootle through.

RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 10:07

www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/dash-for-cash?utm_term=.dwgxyWR8G#.sarLv7z4k
The Dash For Cash: Leaked Files Reveal RBS Systematically Crushed British Businesses ForProfit

Interesting story and also interesting timing on its breaking. Banks fighting for single market are going to have a hard time in public opinion...

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RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 10:19

Allie Renison ‏@AllieRenison
Sorry, is The Sun backing the UK to stay in the Single Market? "If the EU forced us out..."

I note that the Sunday Times editorial seemed to be for staying in the Single Market yesterday. Murdoch's position? Could be important.

Wonder what the Daily Mail and Sunday Mail will do.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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CeciledeVolanges · 10/10/2016 10:23

Another Telegraph poll for you - only a minority of Telegraph readers actually believe May can do the job...

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
Peregrina · 10/10/2016 10:26

Strange times indeed www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/former-head-david-camerons-local-9010872 Former head of David Cameron's local Tory branch defects to Labour.

RedToothBrush · 10/10/2016 10:40

Witney is getting interesting.

Joe Public ‏@jpublik
Both The Times and Sunday Times want soft Brexit, while The Sun and Sun on Sunday are still persisting with hard Brexit AND Single Market

Twitter pretty quiet on Brexit this morning - all about Trump instead. I'm doing some pondering about the origin of post fact politics atm instead.

I have been having some thoughts it, why it is important to actually understand and why demographics of Brexit might have brought it out.

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jaws5 · 10/10/2016 11:02

So The Sun are speaking for Brexiters and apparently they didn't mean Hard Brexit?

jaws5 · 10/10/2016 11:06

www.buzzfeed.com/kellyoakes/these-three-scientists-are-leaving-the-uk-because-of-brexit
The brain-drain that wouldn't happen has started.

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