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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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GloriaGaynor · 08/10/2016 12:46

I do therefore wonder if ideologically May is indeed a kipper, but the reason she stayed Remain was out of a pragmatism for economics

I think it was purely political pragmatism. I don't think she grasps the economics of it all - how could anyone who appears genuinely to be considering a hard Brexit, who could say it wouldn't be a disaster if we left Europe, whom Wall Street bankers felt didn't get it on her last visit there. (And I say this as an arts academic with a very poor grasp of economics - the economics of Brexit is basic common sense + actually listening to 'experts'.)

All bizarre given she's ex BoE. I wonder what she did there? Her degree's in geography.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 14:23

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/07/theresa-may-is-following-enoch-powell--by-actually-listening-to/
Theresa May is following Enoch Powell.
The writer Simon Heffer seems to be a Enoch Powell expert / friend fan boy.

When I said that much of the rhetoric during the referendum debate was right out of the Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech, I was scoffed at by a lot of posters. Or it was dismissed as being something different because no one wanted to be associated with Powell.

Now its being claimed and May is being applauded for it.

Anyway, its a bloody depressing read and again talks about this redefining of democracy as the tyranny of majority. It also echoes many of the things in that piece by Rory Stewart in that way.

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RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 14:35

I've just seen in this FT article

www.ft.com/content/8de9294a-8caa-11e6-8cb7-e7ada1d123b1
The LSE dispute centred on a meeting between Professor Kevin Featherstone, head of the LSE’s European Institute, and Nathaniel Copsey, the Foreign Office’s head of research, during which LSE officials say they were told of the no-foreigners proscription.

This is where it starts to get 'odd'.

Chris Hanretty @chrishanretty
@natcopsey is on secondment to FCO, and RTed @StevePeers ' criticism of such a ban.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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whatwouldrondo · 08/10/2016 14:54

By way of light relief here are some Brexit, May and Corbyn related words of wisdom from Lord Sugar, this was before the conference though......

The programme starts differently as well. We are now, viewers are portentously warned, in “a time of economic turmoil”. Presumably, the vote for Brexit is bothering Lord Sugar, who said before the EU Referendum that voters would be “mugs of the world” to plump for Leave. Well, they did, and many believe the economic fallout following the referendum has not been as calamitous as predicted – employment rates remain strong, consumer confidence has rebounded and forecasts of a recession have been revised.
Ah, says Lord Sugar, that is just the calm before the storm. “I know there are a lot of commentators out there at the moment saying: ‘Well, it’s not bad, is it? I mean, we’re three months down the line, nothing seems to have changed.’ Exactly! Nothing has changed yet. When it does change, that’s when you’ll start to realise, wow, the real implications, the ramifications of Brexit may start to hit home. As sure as I’m sitting here and Bake Off is going to be a disaster on Channel 4, I’m telling you that in five years’ time, when we’ve finally hammered out all these new rules, it’s going to be an absolute disaster.”
There is a new prime minister who, at least, Lord Sugar rates as an “excellent choice” for leader. So excellent, that if the former Labour peer had a vote (he doesn’t as a member of the House of Lords), he would vote Conservative?
“Most probably, yes.”
So, Jeremy Corbyn has yet to convince him as leader of the Labour Party? “I’m out of the Labour Party at the moment while that nutter’s around. That Corbyn fellow. He’s just a nightmare. I mean, he’s destroyed the party, and it looks like he’s going to be re-elected again as the leader, and I don’t know what his game is. I think they [Labour] have got to get rid of him.” Or face, Lord Sugar says, almost certain defeat at the 2020 election.
As a “borderline wally” when at school, Lord Sugar says that he doesn’t agree with one policy resurrected by Theresa May – “Grammar schools, in my opinion, seem to segregate people at a point in time [saying] you’re either a boff or a wally. But you know, many wallies turned into boffs afterwards. So to actually say: ‘Well, you’re in a grammar school because you passed this boff exam at 11, well, I think that’s wrong.”


RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 15:08

a50 people's challenge being heard 13th and 17th Oct. (Next Friday and following Monday).

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lalalonglegs · 08/10/2016 15:37

Oh good, I thought it was starting soon. Any news on the Northern Irelandc challenge? I know it launched but can't find much about its progress since reaching court.

I'm listening to Any Questions on catch up - Hillary Benn got gratifyingly loud applause for his take-down of one of the pro-Brexit panellists. God, I hope he gets that select committee chairmanship.

GloriaGaynor · 08/10/2016 15:44

I haven't found any either, (NI challenge) other than reports of both sides of the legal argument.

I'd be interested if anyone has a link to legal assessments of the case, because I feel the the chances of success are not high. I think the point is really to draw attention to NI's predicament.

Next stop is a petition of consent in Stormont I guess?

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 17:54

I've been looking for one Gloria, but I've not seen one. The last impression I got from the NI case was the challenge perhaps was not as strong as it might have been because there is a political reason for some stake holders not to support it fully, but it provides a platform for them to persuade a case for a united Ireland. I could be wrong but I was feeling less positive after reading up on how the cases were presented.

I am keeping a close eye for a ruling on it though.

eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/the-closing-of-british-mind-brexit-eu.html
Steve Pees - fuller view of the LSE story

Tom London ‏@TomLondon6 8h
8 hours ago

"English Fascism is likely to be of a sedate & subtle kind (presumably, at any rate at first, it won't be called Fascism)"
- George Orwell.

The brain drain starts
www.buzzfeed.com/kellyoakes/these-three-scientists-are-leaving-the-uk-because-of-brexit?utm_term=.ihxb4KLwG#.hykz9gp4W
Three scientists who are leaving (left)

home.bt.com/news/uk-news/theresa-may-must-rule-out-worst-aspects-of-hard-brexit-says-cbi-chief-11364104180486
The CBI has said that May must rule out the 'worst aspects of Brexit'

It seems Corbyn has started something of a twitter storm. He apparently agreed to boycott a Socialist Workers Party event over allegations that it covered up sexual assaults and rapes. Then he turned up and spoke at the event. Lots of angry tweets flying around.

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mathanxiety · 08/10/2016 18:47

Wrt the recent hacking statement by the US government - the implication that Moscow is trying to influence the US election is designed to cast Trump in a poor light in the aftermath of remarks to the effect that Moscow preferred Trump over Clinton. a good while ago. It's supposed to provide those still afflicted by the Red Scare (a lot of Americans have not shaken off the Cold War) with some sort of hint that the Kremlin is afraid of Clinton (so they hacked the Democrats, not the Republicans). To go so far as to imply that WikiLeaks operates on behalf of Moscow is an indication that flames are being fanned just because this is an election season.

'“I applaud the administration’s decision to publicly name Russia as the source of hacks into US political institutions. We should now work with our European allies who have been the victim of similar and even more malicious cyber interference by Russia to develop a concerted response that protects our institutions and deters further meddling,” said congressman Adam Schiff, the senior Democrat on the US House intelligence committee.'
Bear in mind that the US spies on its own allies, and hacked Angela Merkel's phone, with WikiLeaks alleging that tapping of German govt communications by the US went on for decades. French ministers were tapped too, apparently.

I am inclined to agree with the Russian line that there is an unprecedented level of vitriol aimed at Russia for the last little while.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 19:03

Been looking for things on Conservative Home again.

www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/10/hammond-climbs-rudd-falls-in-our-cabinet-league-table.html
They do a league table for Cabinet members monthly, giving each a score. This was the result of last months - BEFORE the conference. May's popularity dropped in September, whilst Hammond's went up. Ruth Davidson is more popular than anyone. Whilst Amber Rudd took a pasting - I stress again this is BEFORE here speech. Fox is mid table but lower than both Davies and Johnson.

www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/10/forcing-businesses-to-declare-how-many-foreigners-they-employ-is-an-awful-and-clumsy-idea.html
Then there's the article about THAT policy. Its very interesting in what it says about Rudd and where the policy came from as it doesn't fit with her record at all. Option 1 is that she overcompensated to show she was tough but the article doesn't favour that as its out of character. The second option is:
The second option is that this has come down from Downing Street itself. This seems somewhat more possible. The last six years in the Home Office have left May with a reputation as a political survivor, but also with a lingering air of vulnerabilityaround the topic of immigration control, given the failure to fulfil the “tens of thousands” manifesto pledge. She or her advisers might well have wanted to firstly demonstrate that the department with which she is so closely identified is progressing under new management and secondly to try to answer once and for all the concernin some quarters that she hadn’t done enough to reduce numbers.

Given what's happened with the FCO and LSE after this article was written, I'd also go along with this second option. Except in the case of the FCO someone within the department took exception to it and decided to make a stand against it rather than go with it, like Rudd appears to, if indeed this came from her boss.

The question now starts to be whether Johnson had a had in the LSE affair or not or whether it was an individual civil servant. Rumours about Johnson starting to position himself for the PMs job, not liking the Hard Brexit option and siding with Hammond over the single market and how May took a dig at him at the Conservative conference do make you wonder just how much of a split in the Cabinet and just how much of a problem May has on her hands in managing that.

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Ohchristmastreeohchristmastree · 08/10/2016 19:24

One possible good move from Labour

www.aol.co.uk/news/2016/10/06/corbyn-critic-sir-keir-starmer-returns-to-shadow-cabinet/

TheForeignOffice · 08/10/2016 19:26

www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-resources/brexit-britain-british-election-study-insights-from-the-post-eu-referendum-wave-of-the-bes-internet-panel/#.V_k5yRmEbqB

Has this been posted already? Don't have time comment in detail now but it's interesting stuff indeed.

mathanxiety · 08/10/2016 19:33

Wrt the Rory Stewart blog:

...it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

Edmund Burke is turning in his grave if he can read that moronic piece by Stewart. You absolutely have to argue with stupid if you are a representative, not join the race to the bottom and become the mouthpiece of the most ignorant constituent or the heaviest armed or the group most inclined to take to the streets.

"Instead of relying on ‘idle’ civil servants, he felt MPs should recruit and rely on a band of volunteers – ranging from boys scouts, to energetic retired people. If there was a problem with crime, my father’s ideal MP would go out with the police to catch the criminals."
Yes.
Hence the burning of witches, lynching, etc., etc.
FFS.

In the same vein is the article lauding Enoch Powell for 'listening to the people'. There surely comes a point where distinguishing right from wrong must come into your cogitations when you sit down to write a speech that you know will influence people.

This - For [other European leaders], democracy is a tiresome advisory process that they can feel free to interpret as they wish, not a guide to public opinion which, if ignored, will build up to a quiet – or perhaps not so quiet – revolution of the sort we have just had in Britain. It is why Donald Trump stands such a good chance of winning the American presidential election next month. It is why Marine Le Pen will do so well in next May’s presidential election in France. And it is why Frauke Petry’s AfD party is eating into support for Angela Merkel in Germany, and may well help depose her as head of the ruling coalition there next autumn from the Telegraph link is execrable and it ignores the sense of grievance that arose from the policies that created a society of haves vs. have nots since the days of Margaret 'There is no such thing as society' Thatcher.

In the narrow context of the referendum, what the Brexit vote represents more than anything else is a complete and abject failure of political leadership. By this I mean people like Stewart indulging in the pretense that simple solutions are possible, and allowing others to indulge that dangerous idea too. Simple solutions is the appeal of fascism and of revolution.

(Your comments on education really do make sense here, Red).

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 20:24

www.politico.com/story/2016/10/rnc-halts-all-victory-project-work-for-trump-229363

With regard to Trump, I think yesterday's big scandal has just had a key development.

The Republican National Committee on Saturday appeared to at least temporarily halt the operations of some of the “Victory” program that is devoted to electing Donald Trump.

The move comes as the GOP nominee is under mounting pressure from elected Republicans to step aside after he was caught on tape bragging about sexually assaulting women.

In an email from the RNC to a victory program mail vendor, with the subject line “Hold on all projects,” the committee asked the vendor to “put a hold” on mail production.

Think this is going to blow up, and blow big now. Arnold Schwarzenegger has already put out a statement saying as a America his first duty is to his country and even though he is a republican he can not vote for Trump as a result. More are going to follow now, I suspect with that news about the RNC breaking.

This is also be a blow for some of the Brexiteers who want the domino effect. Farage is apparently now in the US to help coach Trump ahead of the next debate.

www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-britain-d0b39790-8d7e-11e6-8cdc-4fbb1973b506-20161008-story.html
Back to the Rudd saga. This is curious. Splits start to emerge in the UK government.

A government minister speaking on condition of anonymity condemned a proposal to force companies to list foreign workers, proposed by Home Secretary Amber Rudd at the Conservative Party conference on Tuesday, as illegal, discriminatory and said it would have to be abandoned because it would not pass a vote in Parliament.
Who could this be?

Someone's pissed.

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mathanxiety · 08/10/2016 20:31

The CBI statement linked already by Red illustrates via the comments section what happens when you let people get away with not thinking critically, when politicians decide to go with the flow.

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 21:00

Very encouraging to read the chigagotribune piece, division within cabinet is certainly cheering me up.

TheBathroomSink · 08/10/2016 21:06

Michael Crick is touting some allegations against Farage by Lisa Duffy's campaign manager. He hasn't specified what, but there is a twitter rumour of a mistress receiving cash in brown envelopes.

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 3h3 hours ago
Lisa Duffy's former campaign manager Jay Beecher is making some very serious allegations against Nigel Farage

Farage is also the only person who is not a Fox anchor or Rudy Guiliani who is currently trying to defend Trump.

TheBathroomSink · 08/10/2016 21:08

Who could this be? It's probably Amber Rudd.

In a world of bizarre stuff, including Ed Balls dressed as Jim Carrey and dancing a samba, the weirdest thing I've seen is still a tweet from TicTacs condemning Donald Trump.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 21:22

Farage has been on US tv saying "He's not running for Pope" with regard to Trump.

The man will defend ANYTHING won't he?

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TheBathroomSink · 08/10/2016 21:31

Well his own party literally descending into infighting, and Theresa May has stolen all of his policies, so he has no other raison d'etre

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 21:58

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/08/cabinet-split-over-handling-of-brexit/
Uh oh Mrs May: Cabinet split over handling of brexit.

One cabinet colleague went as far saying that Mr Hammond, who voted to stay in the EU, should “watch his back” and could lose his job.

The knives are out in force! Party unity lasted, what? A week?

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SwedishEdith · 08/10/2016 22:08

Cabinet split over Brexit Nooo.

"Other Eurosceptics have hit out at Mr Hammond’s approach. One cabinet colleague told this newspaper he may face the sack if he continues "talking down" Britain's prospects after it leaves the EU.

His "relentless pessimism" has infuriated his colleagues who believe that Britain needs to take a positive approach to Brexit if it is to succeed, the minister said.

They added: "He still appears to be in a state of grief [over the referendum result], he should watch his back."

Sounds like members of the "Tough. End of." brigade.

Meanwhile, "However friends of Mr Hammond are furious with the “nonsense and garbage” that Eurosceptics have said about the strength of Britain’s hand in talks.

“The obligation is on the Brexit leaders to now tell the British public some hard truths,” a Treasury figure said. "

Meanwhile, Baroness Manzoor, who led attacks over tax credit cuts, has joined the Toreis! "Leaving the Lib Dems, where I've been a member for three years in the House of Lords, was tough, but it was the right thing to do."

SwedishEdith · 08/10/2016 22:10

x-post!

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 22:12

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/revealed-us-billionaire-is-funding-brexit-legal-challenge-1-7619937
NI case back in court Tuesday.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/08/mps-demand-vote-hard-brexit-single-market?CMP=twt_gu
MPs demand vote on single market.

Theresa May is under massive cross-party pressure to grant MPs a vote on any decision to leave or limit UK involvement in the European single market, amid growing outrage at the prospect that parliament could be bypassed over the biggest economic decision in decades.
Tory MPs joined forces with former leaders of Labour and the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and Greens to insist that parliament have a say and a vote, pointing out that, while the British people had backed leaving the EU, they had not chosen to leave the biggest trading market in the western world.

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jaws5 · 08/10/2016 22:24

red just read the guardian piece and I've been trying to find out whether Corbyn is in the croos-party alliance, his name doesn't appear anywhere, Chula Ummuna, Nick Clegg, Ed Milligan, Caroline Lucas, where is Corbyn?

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