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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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jaws5 · 08/10/2016 22:26

Rhetorical question obviously as Corbyn is nowhere to be seen. They'll blame the media again...

TheBathroomSink · 08/10/2016 22:33

Jaws5 sadly I think Corbyn has been busy at the SWP rally with the rapists he said he wouldn't go and see. But at least there, everyone loves him and no-one asks him any hard questions.

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 22:35

Such a nice guy, probably at a Stop the War afternoon of talks on Palestinian oppression..

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 22:48

Law Geek ‏@law_geek
Wasn't so long ago Farage was threatening us with being groped by refugees but when a powerful white American does it he's an "alpha male"

www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-nireland-idUSKCN1280PH?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=57f9668504d3013d5ada0416&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
Mock border in NI.

www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2026008/little-england-conceit-brexit-full-display?utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=SCMPSocialNewsfeed
Article about Brexit in the South China Morning Post.

Its... well... damning.

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mathanxiety · 08/10/2016 22:54

So would anyone like to put money on Hammond packing his stuff in a box and being escorted out of the building by the end of the month?

As noted in the Chicago Tribune it is the way the May message was received when she made her speech that worries investors and foreign governments. It is also most likely that nobody in the IMF lives in a little bubble cut off from articles detailing how Hammond needs to watch his back. Meanwhile he sets sail for New York to tell people his PM didn't really mean what she said and all that applause at the conference was for...I dunno...maybe a streaker?

Most worrying of all for the perception of the UK abroad in places that matter is the way all of this is trickling out from under a closed door (to borrow a phrase used at the time of Ireland's Easter Rebellion when the leaders were shot). The impression of a furious struggle and utter disarray within HM Government is the abiding one, and no amount of reassurance will manage to persuade observers that these people couldn't organise a dog fight, let alone the negotiations that lie ahead, or plotting a solid course for a major world economy. Leaking information, making off the record comments to the press - it is disastrous.

Put that together with the spectacle of UKIP MEPs engaging in an actual physical fight in Brussels, and the impression of a country that has descended into a state of pandemonium is very strong.

I think reports of Trump's demise are premature. Whatever his chances of winning may be at this point, Ted Cruz or Mike Pence are not alternatives, nor will Paul Ryan sacrifice himself.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 22:58

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/08/homophobic-attacks-double-after-brexit-vote

Homophobic attacks rose 147% since Brexit.

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mathanxiety · 08/10/2016 23:04

Wrt the article about Chuck Feeney's financial and presumably moral support for the Brexit challenge, it is a real pity the DUP appears to be circling the wagons where Brexit is concerned, but not surprising. This is the party that preferred 30 years of ruinous sectarian strife to power sharing, which they ended up doing anyway under the GFA but with fingers crossed behind their backs.

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 23:07

It makes total sense red, which minority group will they go for next?

TheBathroomSink · 08/10/2016 23:09

I think reports of Trump's demise are premature. Whatever his chances of winning may be at this point, Ted Cruz or Mike Pence are not alternatives, nor will Paul Ryan sacrifice himself.

Maybe, but what's the lowest a candidate from one of the two main parties has ever polled? I don't see the point in them trying to rescue a win from here, it may be better for them to let Trump go down in flames as a deterrent for the future and aim for a sensible candidate (not Cruz) in 2020.

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 23:12

The South China Morning Post article is going to sting! are all those countries in the Big Wide World no longer queuing up in admiration?

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 23:15

So would anyone like to put money on Hammond packing his stuff in a box and being escorted out of the building by the end of the month?

Bet on UK politics at the moment? I'm not a complete mug! If it were 6 months ago and we were talking about rational and responsible behaviour I'd have a shot. But now? All bets are off.

That said, if the knives are that much out, it means one of two things: someone is trying to reign in Hammond OR protect their own neck.

If Hammond goes the country will look an even bigger basket case. Surely May isn't THAT crazy (no don't answer that one please, cos I'm not sure I'll like the answer).

Charles Grant @CER_Grant
At #TheBodrumRT I predict hard Brexit bec both UK and 27 will put politics ahead of economic self-interest; expect looser ties than NW/Switz

And sadly I fear he is right.

Mike Pence events have been removed from Trumps website. Something is afoot there. McCain and Condelleeza Rice have pulled support. I wouldn't put it past Trump to refuse to back out, become an independent and the Republican party give unofficial support to another candidate already on the ballot paper at this point.

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RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 23:34

Fab article about Human Rights and understanding them
makingrightsmakesense.wordpress.com/2016/10/07/building-public-support-for-human-rights-where-next/
The work I’ve been involved with has helped to establish initiatives such as Equally Ours and Rights Info, underpinned by new research into how the public thinks about human rights and how we can communicate about human rights more effectively. A key insight from the research is that to enjoypublic support, stories about human rights need to be relatable, foster an intuitive sense of injustice or unfairness and be told by spokespeople that enjoy high levels of trust. Or as Eleanor Roosevelt advised almost 60 years ago, human rights must make sense in the ‘small places close to home’ if we are to expect them to have meaning and enjoy support in the wider world.

Btw I am lead to believe that Corbyn being at a SWP event and speaking at it is technically against Labour Party rules. You are not allowed to support another political party. Lots of people had votes for the leadership removed because they were deemed to support another party.

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jaws5 · 08/10/2016 23:40

mobile.twitter.com/AntiRacismDay/status/784771214065762304
There he was!

Peregrina · 08/10/2016 23:46

The South China Morning Post article is going to sting! are all those countries in the Big Wide World no longer queuing up in admiration?

I thought that China was going to be rushing to do trade deals with us? The image which comes to mind is of vultures circling a carcass.

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 23:52

No worries, there's always New Zealand!

mathanxiety · 09/10/2016 00:02

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-evangelicals-idUSKCN1280WE On Trump and whether he will be dumped:
"...the majority view among religious conservatives appeared to be summed up by Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council action group, who said evangelicals "are left with a choice of voting for the one who will do the least damage to our freedoms."

"This is far from an ideal situation, but it is the reality in which we find ourselves and as difficult as it is, I refuse to find sanctuary on the sidelines and allow the country and culture to deteriorate even further by continuing the policies of the last eight years," he said."

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2016 00:15

"So I'm going to vote for the one candidate who has a dislike of the law and is prepared to admit it"

Well the logic is about as sound.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/08/duchess-of-cambridge-will-be-potent-force-in-brexit-bridge-build/
Anyway folks, Brexit will be fine. We are drafting in the Duchess of Cambridge
is that the faint whiff of desperation I smell?

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jaws5 · 09/10/2016 00:17

That's really desperate! Oh, wait... it's great, she will "stun them in a flowing red dress"!

mathanxiety · 09/10/2016 00:27

There is a large body of GOP opinion that was from the outset here just hoping the mid term elections could be salvaged - House and Senate elections really matter. 2020 is still a long way off.

McCain and Rice are not at all unexpected backer-outers. Rice was such a close associate of Bush I am surprised she had ever given Trump any support. McCain's heart was very obviously never with Trump.

Many absentee votes have already been cast with the lineup of Clinton/Kaine vs. Trump/Pence.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2016 05:31

Rnc have apparently cut trump loose and will no longer support his campaign financially. Ryan apparently fully aware and involved with leak earlier from rnc. finances to be redirected to congress and senate campaigns. Presidential debate will be interesting then!

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mathanxiety · 09/10/2016 06:40

www.wsj.com/articles/gop-scrambles-to-salvage-election-after-donald-trumps-latest-imbroglio-1475969203
I wonder will all of this just bring more Trump support out of the woodwork.

TheForeignOffice · 09/10/2016 07:21

I used to be very pro our royal family in general (the Queen and Harry in particular), but given their collective radio silence as the UK has descended into utter chaos (political, economic, international PR) this article really makes me wonder what their point is. Yes I appreciate they aren't supposed to meddle in politics, but that makes their role in general, and the one implied in this article even less meaningful to me.

Also, Queen Maxima's hair is way swishier than Kate's Wink. I am a huge fan of the Dutch royal family.

merrymouse · 09/10/2016 07:29

are left with a choice of voting for the one who will do the least damage to our freedoms

Unless the composition of Senate and congress changes, don't the GOP have alot of control over Clinton?

However how do you control a man with no self control?

prettybird · 09/10/2016 09:27

From the Telegraph article about the royal pawn Duchess of Cambridge.... "That may now change, however, as Britain contemplates the process of negotiating trade deals with every EU member state."

They really don't get it do they? ShockHmmConfused

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2016 09:43

Keir on Marr this morning. Labour policy seems to be that we need to reduce immigration. He thinks it needs to go down, but there must not be a target as this "has perverse outcomes". This needs to be done by helping British workers (seemingly by government policy over and above border controls) Asked about FoM he said it needed to be part of the negotiations but the economy needed to come first.

Very good interview. Smart answer. Is it too complex for the current popularist mood?

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