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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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RedToothBrush · 07/10/2016 21:32

It appears someone agrees with you Peregina....

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers 13m
Here's @DavidAllenGreen's threat on the LSE/FCO/EU academic discrimination saga. He's writing as ex-government lawyer. Here's my take 1
2 I've observed university administrators every day for over 20 years. Much of their work is with govt: research & student funding, imm law.
3 if they get it wrong there are serious problems. So they need to be very, very precise about their understanding of gov policy
4 very hard to believe any uni admin would send an e-mail to all staff as the LSE did unless they were certain what policy was.
5 More likely scenario:
Senior gov minister is annoyed at reading 'Germany won't do this' etc
So he reaches, in effect, for mute
6 He makes it clear he doesn't want to read that sort of thing any more. Maybe he even conveys his opinion in schoolboy Latin.
7 The message can't be official, as DAG pointed out. It has to be unofficial (& deniable) - so conveyed in a phone call to LSE.
8 Some (hypothetical) uni admins might passively accept this govt policy. But it seems the LSE is passive-aggressive.
9 So they send an e-mail to the staff member, and to all staff. It's bound to end up in social media, MSM and cause blowback.
10 Policy is indefensible in light of recent govt xenophobia and reputation of Foreign Secretary as buffoon. So FCO backtracks.
11 On that note: thanks all for objecting to vile govt policies all week. It may have got some policies changed. It didn't hurt.

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GloriaGaynor · 07/10/2016 21:44

Norvege vingt points!

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2016 22:46

Arrrhhh, its always good to look at the US when reflecting on politics.

Trump caught on audio saying he 'can do anything to women' because he's a star and he 'grabs em by the pussy'. The US have just formally accused Russia of interfering with the election and hacking the democrats. And Putin has made a complaint to the UN after an official criticised Trump.

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GloriaGaynor · 07/10/2016 23:07

He once hit on his daughter by mistake.

prettybird · 07/10/2016 23:21

There are probably a couple of threads that are more appropriate to post this, but in the spirit of being positive and not wanting to attractt too many of the nutters to her site, I thought it was best to post this link here (last time I posted a link on here, she noticed the MN spike)

https://mewsingoutloud.wordpress.com/2016/10/07/we-are-scotland/

It explains why we (in Scotland) need more immigration (our population has been virtually static for 100 years Shock), how our incidents of recorded racism actually reduced post EU referendum and also how we took the piss out of Nick Griffin trying to foment racial discord. Grin

lalalonglegs · 07/10/2016 23:47

Jonathan Freeland nails the bizarro world that is UK politics at the moment.

May has had to rewrite the history of 23 June. No longer the winner in a fairly narrow vote of 52% to 48%, leave was recast in the PM’s conference speech as a mass consensus, the unambiguous stance of the great British public. All that had ever stood in their way was a liberal, monied elite, the Davos set of footloose globetrotters devoid of national allegiance, citizens of the world and therefore citizens of nowhere. Before our very eyes the 48% are being rebranded as the 1%.

What’s so odd about this is that it is former remainers who are doing it. Recall that May stood – not very visibly, it’s true – alongside those who wanted to stay in the EU. Amber Rudd, she of the foreigners’ lists, confronted Boris Johnson in a TV debate. Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary now eager to denude the NHS of the world’s best medical talent, was a remainer too. They are engaged in a collective act of over-compensation, frantically mouthing the prayers of the new religion now that the old one has been banished as heresy.

mathanxiety · 08/10/2016 08:17

I suspect the anti-Russian stance that is so prominent right now in the US is a stupid sort of election season posturing on the part of the Democrats, who are more and more looking like the worst hawks of the Republicans, while the Republicans are looking more and more bizarre by the day.

I am very glad that the Washington Post in the article Whatwouldrondo linked has made the connection between the 'old “rootless cosmopolitan” slur" and May's “If you believe you are a citizen of the world...you are a citizen of nowhere.” It is an old anti-Semitic slur and it casts another layer of grimness into this already putrid swamp. An old animus is stalking the land. I think many hitherto unthinkable barriers have been breached in the last week or so, and the lurch into fascism is gathering steam. Is it blind or is it purposeful and planned? Either way it is a terrible thing to behold.

I think the Telegraph is clutching at straws wrt Hammond providing opposition. My thought is how long before he resigns on principle? May has nailed her colours to the mast in no uncertain fashion in that appalling speech, with her comments on interest rates.

I don't think May's shift into UKIP territory is tactical. I think this is the real, anti-ECHR Theresa May shedding her former skin and emerging in all her reptilian sliminess. It will be Hammond or May for the block if the crisis continues.

TheElementsSong · 08/10/2016 08:27

Very well said math Sad

missmoon · 08/10/2016 08:38

I suspect the anti-Russian stance that is so prominent right now in the US is a stupid sort of election season posturing on the part of the Democrats,

The Department of Homeland Security and the Office of Director of National Intelligence have strong evidence that Russian intelligence tried to influence the US election: www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/07/us-russia-dnc-hack-interfering-presidential-election

Maybe they influenced our referendum campaign too (UKIP always glowing about Purim), who knows? But I find it very worrying. It's not posturing.

Unicornsarelovely · 08/10/2016 09:14

Isn't Arron banks' wife Russian with alleged links to Putin?

Apparently the UKIP fight wasn't so much fisticuffs as 'girl on girl' and more like '2 tarts dancing round a handbag'. Good to how we have such quality representatives.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 09:20

I know someone who has had dealings with the Home Office (including things handled by May) who said that the reasons she came up with in order to deport people were cunning and 'evil'. May is known to be very good friends with Dacre (as well as Murdoch, but I get the impression that she is more friendly with Dacre). If it hadn't have been for Gove boasting about his relationship with Dacre it would have been a surprise that Dacre went for May over Gove.

I do therefore wonder if ideologically May is indeed a kipper, but the reason she stayed Remain was out of a pragmatism for economics. The referendum result gives her a reason to abandon this pragmatism in favour of purer ideology.

I do agree that there is definitely more than a touch of over compensation going on. I think there are many Tories doing it to 'prove' that they understand and are listening to the 'needs' of the people dismissing critical thought along the way. And its got out of control with May at the helm.

The trouble is, I do think they still don't understand. May talking about making the country a meritocracy whilst simultaneously slagging off the educated elite for not understanding tells you most of what you need to know. If she genuinely thinks that she can give people from certain backgrounds the opportunity of education she also needs to praise education and make it something that is attractive rather than perpetuating the mistrust and dislike of it. Otherwise its very clear that her intentions are of a much more sinister nature and she does not really have the best interests of the under privileged as her primary motivation.

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Peregrina · 08/10/2016 09:23

.... and the lurch into fascism is gathering steam. Is it blind or is it purposeful and planned? Either way it is a terrible thing to behold.

A mixture of both, I feel, and they think that they will be able to contain it. They will be wrong.

I think the Telegraph is clutching at straws wrt Hammond providing opposition. My thought is how long before he resigns on principle? I agree - he has already been sidelined.

May has nailed her colours to the mast in no uncertain fashion in that appalling speech, with her comments on interest rates. And her failure to condemn speeches which were clearly racist.

I don't think May's shift into UKIP territory is tactical. I think this is the real, anti-ECHR Theresa May shedding her former skin and emerging in all her reptilian sliminess.

I weep at this one - from the country which was the prime mover in drawing up the ECHR - for the most honourable of motives.

It will be Hammond or May for the block if the crisis continues. Hammond, I think. My only hope is that she has so closely associated herself with Brexit, that she has no escape when it goes wrong.

ImpYCelyn · 08/10/2016 09:47

So bitterly ironic that Brexiteers cast the EU as the 3rd Reich and Merkel as Hitler to stir up fear to get a Leave vote...

prettybird · 08/10/2016 09:51

Cameron fought dirty like buggery not to be the PM that oversaw the break-up of the UK. The panic that ensued from the single poll that showed Yes in the lead during the Indyref led to a phalanx of MPs up from WM and the Vow. Don't tell me the Establishment didn't agree to it - they certainly supported it, despite it having been issues during what should have been Purdah but apparently that doesn't count during a referendum Hmm They got Brown out of his box to deliver promises that he was not in a position to make. They promised that the only way we'd be safe in the EU was if we stayed in the UK (I know personally 5 people who voted No for that reason alone they've changed their minds) SadAngry

Now it will be May who has the honour of presiding over FUKD - but Cameron should also share in the responsibility as it was his gutlessness that got us into this fucking mess. We should never have had the vote in the first place he never expected to win the GE so he could have relied on the LibDems to save him - it was purely to appease a minority wing of his party. He showed a lack of leadership. He could have put in the safeguard of having the double lock that each of the constituent countries had to vote for it but voted down the SNP's amendment - as England can always do, no matter what Scotland would like and what might have been the best for the UK in his hubris Angry

So if and when the UK breaks up to form FUKD, it will be May and Cameron's fault. Sad

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 09:54

Arron Bank's ex-wife.

Was alleged to be the 'best KGB agent Russia have had since the cold war'. Stayed in UK despite a weak case to. Apparently got 'help' with this. A Lib Dem MP got mixed up with her and got accused of improper conduct.

Since divorced I believe.

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Peregrina · 08/10/2016 09:56

So if and when the UK breaks up to form FUKD, it will be May and Cameron's fault. Entirely.

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 10:13

I read this blog written by Rory Stewart earlier this week, which I think sheds some light on thinking going on by some in the Tory party.

www.rorystewart.co.uk/public-point-view/

It stunned me somewhat.

But the expert may be focusing only on what can be quantified – thecost of a hospital; the measured impact of grazing; thecarbon-savings; or the jobs created. They may ignore other types ofvalues which matter to a community: a deep historical attachment to acommunity health-care centre; nostalgia for a small family sheep farm;the meaning of a landscape; or the beauty of a market-town. In whichcase an MP’s task is to challenge the experts’ views; to lead a marchin favour of the cottage hospital, support the small farmer, ordemonstrate against the wind turbine and the new development. Thiswill bewilder the experts, who can always justify their views on thebasis of thousands of scholarly papers. They will feel that thepolitical opposition is purely ‘subjective’, ‘populist’ or‘sentimental’. And certainly not to be preferred to ‘real’ medicalbenefits, ‘real’ environmental benefits, ‘real’ jobs and economicgrowth. And they will suspect the MP is simply ignorant, ordishonest, or afraid of voters, or incapable of showing leadershipand ‘doing the right thing’. (I can imagine my father at this pointadding ‘hear, hear’).

But the reason I find being an MP satisfying is that public opinioncan have its own wisdom, its own rights, and an uncanny reliabilityover time. And this is because it captures what we value most in humanattachments, in traditions, or in a sense of beauty, landscape, and nationhood. Such views reflect our past, features of our soil, shardsof national myths, and our own experiences at home and abroad – amixture muddled in all of us, and fiercely disputed by people withdifferent tastes, beliefs, and from different generations. Beingdifficult to measure, such things are too often overlooked (which isin part why the experts still struggle to come to terms with theBrexit vote) but they are no less important for being unquantifiable.

I both agree and disagree.

There is definitely SOMETHING in the Brexit vote. But what has been focused on is flawed. And in listening to voices of the Brexit vote, the voice of the 48% has been ignored.

We have become trapped between the purely rational thinking "target driven policy" in the NHS and in schools and the inhuman thinking of warmongering Blair which has forgotten humanity and the purely black and white ideological thinking of the Far Right where Muslims = Terrorists Immigrants = Benefit Scroungers in terms of leadership.

It has also become an either / or debate.

The politics are rather more complex than that though. You need both the humanity and reasoned thought. I think many educated people fall foul of that problem (myself included) as taking that approach is judged as trying to make it too difficult for 'normal people' to understand when there is a desire to see things in simple terms. The trouble is that these are complex issues that CAN NOT be simplified no matter how much you want to.

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Unicornsarelovely · 08/10/2016 10:36

Thank you Red as always!

Nightofthetentacle · 08/10/2016 10:41

Arron Banks' ex.wife is a kgb agent Shock

I am off to have a google...

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 10:42

There has been outcry at the events this week, here, other forums, commentators in national and international press (Jonathan Freedland is excellent today), but where is Labour? Why aren't they shouting out? Pathetic! Business leaders are more of an opposition right now!

jaws5 · 08/10/2016 10:45

Red fascinating links!

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 10:59

(Also worth pointing out that lots of business people lack a formal education - so perhaps could be called 'thick' for not having so many GSCEs / O Levels. They simply have had a different kind of education which is no better / worse than a formal one. Education is not just about getting grades at school. 'Thinking critically' is learned but you can learn it different ways and from different sources. EVERYONE should be encouraged to in someway for their own self interest and its part of every decision you make)

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RedToothBrush · 08/10/2016 11:00

oops meant that for the xenophobia thread. Doesn't make sense here.

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prettybird · 08/10/2016 11:01

Rory Stewart is an arse - even if what he says provides a scary insight into the minds of the Conservatives Sad

He was the MP who started up "Hands Across the Border" during the Indyref, which was initially going to be 100,000 people linking their hands along the border, but when he realised he wouldn't be able to get the support do that, turned into a pathetic wee cairn behind a car park on the border near Gretna Hmm - which only ever got to about 4 or 5 feet, rather than the 9 feet he hoped for.

Nightofthetentacle · 08/10/2016 11:47

Well, that was quite Google wormhole. Not surprisingly if you type Aaron Banks and Kgb into google you really just get articles from the express, and one whitepower website which will no doubt appear in my ads forevermore.

Anyway, here is a particularly salacious Bristol Post article- I cannot vouch for the accuracy of any if it.

m.bristolpost.co.uk/donor-s-wife-helped-stay-uk/story-23036990-detail/story.html

Actually, here the times confirms much if it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leave-eu-has-link-to-spy-who-loved-me-lgp003xqt

Disappointingly, it may be another of the women alleged to be spies whom disgraced Mike Hancock has been involved with, who was described as "greatest kgb spy", rather than arron banks' now STBXW. But on the basis of their purple rangerover having the numberplate X MI5 SPY, and the articles above, STBXW may just be a midrange performing spy.

I have now spent too much time on this bloody loved it

(I used to read John le Carre and want to live in a time of great espionage, and now-hooray- it looks like that wish is coming true! ohfuck)