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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 07/10/2016 16:26

I always tick 'prefer not to say' because I'm an awkward fucker.

www.politico.eu/article/germany-to-restrict-unemployment-benefits-for-eu-migrants-andrea-nahles/
Development in Germany.

FCO statement on the LSE case due shortly.

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Arborea · 07/10/2016 16:31

Meanwhile, this article skewers the Opposition nicely: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/06/this-picture-of-jeremy-corbyn-on-a-bongo-drum-just-annihilated-t/

PattyPenguin · 07/10/2016 16:34

I've always interpreted 'Prefer not to say' as 'Mind your own bloody business'. Very useful option.

TheElementsSong · 07/10/2016 16:35

I read a suggestion on another board that we all put a fictional country, say Narnia, on everything.

SwedishEdith · 07/10/2016 16:36

I've always been happy to say in the belief that this helps positive action policies for minorities. And in my workplace, this is true. At the moment. By blood, I'm about 6/8ths Irish but I dislike the 'blood argument' very much. Especially after a woman on QT was going on about tracing her English bloodline back 600 years. Does that make her higher in the pecking order than someone who can only go 550 years back?

SwedishEdith · 07/10/2016 16:46

The Amber Rudd thing is a bit weird. She spoke out well for Remain and was impressive during the tv debate (with all the caveats of her actually being Amber Rudd). So, this 180 degree stance seems, well, odd.

And does anyone have any thoughts on why Boris Johnson is the way he is when the rest of his family seem relatively normal and even likeable? (Caveats again about posh, rich, tory (except his mum) etc) His position in the family?

Nightofthetentacle · 07/10/2016 17:00

I'm really puzzled by this too - she seemed excellent. She is relatively inexperienced and it is possible she is just following orders without understanding the impact of what she is saying. Or doesn't care.

On boris, dunno, golden child dynamic? Sent away as an infant and lost his moral compass at Eton? tbf I am related to I know a number of "naice" individuals who are twisted motherfuckers behind closed doors. I liked Philip Collins in the Times today:

"Boris Johnson, a man who never tells the truth except by accident, as Chamberlain said of Disraeli"

The article itself is good too
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/may-has-no-right-to-foist-this-manifesto-on-us-78rn2w33t

merrymouse · 07/10/2016 17:16

And does anyone have any thoughts on why Boris Johnson is the way he is when the rest of his family seem relatively normal and even likeable?

He is permanently writing a newspaper column.

Other family members also write newspaper columns, they just have a different angle.

Michael Gove was also permanently writing a column, it's just that he believed what he was writing.

TheNorthRemembers · 07/10/2016 17:28

I'll go for Westeros from now on. Or maybe Southern Scotland.

Nightofthetentacle · 07/10/2016 17:31

I've got a couple of mates in Shetland. They would love to be independent from Scotland - although I am hazy on whether this means they would remain part of fUKD. Anyway, I might give their cause a boost by putting "independent isles of shetland" if asked!

TheForeignOffice · 07/10/2016 17:45

I suppose when Theresa May holds a referendum merging the roles of PM and Queen we'll know we're truly fucked.

All hail the Royal Headmistress of FUKD!

www.private-eye.co.uk/st-theresa

TheNorthRemembers · 07/10/2016 17:53
Grin
TheNorthRemembers · 07/10/2016 18:32

It is a very different take on life in Iceland:
Iceland to sentence ninth banker found guilty of market manipulation that helped caused 2008 crash www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/iceland-to-sentence-ninth-banker-found-guilty-of-market-manipulation-that-helped-cause-2008-a7349711.html

I also thought about Tony Blair. He is probably going to establish a thinktank and possibly fundraise for centre candidates. Which could be very beneficial for Labour. He knows a lot of people...

GloriaGaynor · 07/10/2016 18:47

Rachel Johnson is an idiot I was at school with her. Weirdly their brother Jo Johnson is married to the excellent Orwell prize-winning journalist Amelia Gentlemen who was in the year below me. Perhaps Jo is unlike the other two. He's still a Tory though. And a Johnson.

TheNorthRemembers · 07/10/2016 18:58

That is interesting, Gloria. I do not know Jo Johnson was married to Amelia Gentleman.

It seems we have some way to go with racism. The Indy links to a segment on the Daily Show (which contains swearing): The Daily Show tore Fox News to pieces over that racist segment on Chinatown Apparently the O'Reilly Factor did a segment on China and American foreign policy filmed in Chinatown in New York City.

And today's cartoon in the Independent sums up last week's events.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
TheBathroomSink · 07/10/2016 19:59

The Labour reshuffle is done, apparently. 16 of 30 are women, but of the entire Cabinet only 4 have any ministerial experience.

The Chair of the PLP is cross because he had been in 'good faith' talks about reinstating elections for some posts and had no idea the reshuffle was starting. He's sent a letter (see pic) to all Labour MPs tonight.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
RedToothBrush · 07/10/2016 20:02

George Parker ‏@GeorgeWParker
"The currency is now the de facto official opposition to the government’s policies." David Bloom, chief currency analyst at HSBC.

Today has been weird. The pound tanks, Hammond is drafted in to calm the markets with the media and appears to contradict May rather a lot.

This means either than U-Turns have been made and there is rather a lot of back tracking going on OR at some point there is going to be another drive for this Chaos Brexit, in which case things there is going to be an all mighty crash as the markets are not liking what they are hearing at the moment and having their fears confirmed is not going to be pretty. It seems that the markets have been programmed (there are now some mechanisms that like them to social media) to start selling the pound on hearing certain things and then this is then taken on manually on seeing this.

Either way, for the time being at least, it seems that May is being held accountable on some level and being forced to listen to market forces.

David Allen Green on the LSE affair (I believe he has interest in this area as a lawyer):

  1. On the LSE/FCO issue.

If the FCO asked for non-UK nationals to be excluded from tenders then that is almost certainly unlawful.

  1. There is no doubt LSE said internally that the FCO had told them of this new requirement. See LSE statement at
londonschoolofeconomicscommunications.newsweaver.com/flyer/jt0pfmawsxa1t4v8a8a5sd?email=true&a=11&p=1191458
  1. The academics who received the internal communication from managers certainly believed the FCO had made a general policy statement.
  2. At the LSE end of this story, there is no doubt it was widely believed that a formal policy change by FCO.
  3. The internal email from LSE managers to staff is formal and impressive, suggesting it is soundly based on a new FCO stipulation.
  4. It was also clear that many at LSE understood this to be a new general policy, and not just for one project.
  5. What is the source of this information from FCO? The FCO will not confirm. But well-placed LSE source told me it was a conversation.
  6. If so, that would mean it was not a formal written requirement, still less a contract stipulation or specification.
  7. That would not be surprising, as such a stipulation or specification in a tender would mean an immediate breach of (EU!) procurement law.
10. HMG tender documents are not usually prepared by policy officials (thankfully), but by procurement officers/lawyers. 11. Had some policy official insisted on such a stipulation or specification, then it would have been flagged in FCO before being sent out. 12. So whatever basis for this seeming UK-only requirement, it would not have been translated into black-letter legal terms for the tender. 13. So the question is: where did this UK-only requirement come from, if not the formal tender documentation? 14. If the well-placed LSE source is correct, then it was not put in writing at all by the FCO but was communicated by phone (or in person). 15. The FCO is fully entitled to insist on security clearance for certain projects; but non-UK citizens can be cleared. 16. I understand the FCO deny making such a verbal request and that the LSE misconstrued what was being said. 17. So unless there was a written communication from FCO to LSE (yet to emerge) it comes down to what was said in that call. 18. If the FCO had said that they could could make such stipulation, that would have been a mistake, as it would be unlawful. FCO cannot. 19. If the LSE has misunderstood what the FCO had said, that would be a misunderstanding at LSE's end. 20. The risk FCO would face if trying it on verbally (sneakily) is that it would be circulated in LSE in writing straight away (as it was). 21. There would be no way the LSE could follow such a wide policy without it being reduced to writing. FCO would (should) have known this. 22. So if the FCO was the source of the policy change in a phone conversation then it was rather stupid, as well as unlawful. 23. On other hand, the LSE should have insisted on this being set out in writing, as it affected tenders generally. No evidence they did. 24. Tomorrow @BrunoBrussels has more on this in the Times. 25. That is far as I can get to the bottom of this in time available. Sorry for spamming your TLs.

/Ends.
Have just been told on record by FCO that it wants the best expertise "regardless of nationality". Statement being released shortly.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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TheBathroomSink · 07/10/2016 20:09

FCO is claiming security reasons.

Peregrina · 07/10/2016 20:22

I am quite sure that the LSE didn't misunderstand. It is on a par with Amber Rudd pretending that she was just tossing out ideas.

Unless of course, it was a deliberate ploy from someone who knew that the LSE would leak the information? Am I clutching at straws here?

SwedishEdith · 07/10/2016 20:46

Yes, I'd read about Jo Johnson and who he was married to. But their dad seems ok (was on some programme about living in the wild or something) and isn't their mum a Labour voter?

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2016 20:58

Peregina, in pretty much every scenario (bar the innocent one) that I can envisage, someone was acting deliberately in a highly political manner and wanted the press to find out about it.

In all scenarios it would not have happened if it had not been for what Amber Rudd said. Its just freaked people out and unsettled people so much.

Something smells political to me though. On whose part? Institutional or individual? Difficult to be sure.

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RedToothBrush · 07/10/2016 21:04

How to get depressed.
Support for the death penalty. Most recent data.

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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hotmail123 · 07/10/2016 21:10

educate
agitate
organise

Mistigri · 07/10/2016 21:30

I can't share it easily on my phone but Steve Peers has a theory about the LSE debacle (go and read the full sequence):

@StevePeers 5 More likely scenario:
^Senior gov minister is annoyed at reading 'Germany won't do this' etc
So he reaches, in effect, for mute^

Implication is that the senior minister is BoJo