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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 18:22

Yeah, I've given myself a good shake and will step away from the political news cycle for - ooh, an hour. Practically will be interesting to seek if AG appointment poses any challenges for Shami Chakrabarti, given I assume she's supposed to pop in to the Lords now and again.

Motheroffourdragons · 06/10/2016 18:30

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheNorthRemembers · 06/10/2016 18:50

Nightofthetentacle I had to check what AG was. Meh. Labour reshuffles are two a penny. Says the woman who a few weeks ago was so star-struck by seeing Tom Watson at Birmingham New Street that her family had to drag her away to give the man some peace. I did not even like TW until last week.

Motheroffourdragons Exactly my feelings.

TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 19:08

I may have overestimated the time till the reshuffle goes tits up.

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/79639/excl-rosie-winterton-sacked-meeting-discuss-shadow

Kevin Schofield ‏@PolhomeEditor 27m27 minutes ago
Labour MP: "This is not a reshuffle for peace, this isn't even a reshuffle for an armistice - this is provocation."

TheNorthRemembers · 06/10/2016 19:40

TheBathroomSink Just wow!

SwedishEdith · 06/10/2016 20:49

Keir Starer is Shadow Brexit Secretary. I'm pretty happy about that. Good appointment and he can up his profile for potential future leadership.

SwedishEdith · 06/10/2016 20:51

Starmer Grin Ha ha - hope he does a lot of hard staring at David Davis.

TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 21:11

Starmer is probably the best hope for some form of sensible opposition, if he just gets on and does his job without bothering the Labour leadership for any sort of direction. My concern is that he will get actively undermined if he goes off-message, or just left floundering.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 21:12

Tonight's by elections:

Headland and Harbour
Hartlepool council, County Durham
LAB
(UKIP have done very well here previously running Labour close. The Tories way behind. Will be interesting to see how both do in comparison. Most interesting one of the night at first glance)

Rumworth
Bolton council, Greater Manchester
LAB

ST ANN'S
Haringey council, North London
LAB

BASING
Basingstoke and Deane council, Hampshire
CON

EXMOUTH BRIXINGTON
East Devon council
CON

GILFACH
Caerphilly Council, Gwent
LAB

RISCA EAST
Caerphilly Council, Gwent
LAB

GARSCADDEN/SCOTSTOUNHILL
Glasgow city council
LAB

CULLODEN AND ARDERSIER
Highland council
LAB

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 06/10/2016 21:13

if he just gets on and does his job without bothering the Labour leadership for any sort of direction.

I get the sense that's exactly what he's like.

TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 21:21

So do I Swedish but I also can't help but wonder if I am projecting onto him what I want him to be.

SwedishEdith · 06/10/2016 21:27

I don't think the leadership (Corbyn, really) actually has a view or knows how to address it. Lots of traditional voters are Leave, Corbyn may be a Leave (for different reasons) but their middle class voters are Remain. Generalising, of course. So, easier to delegate to Starmer and not have to think about it.

HesterThrale · 07/10/2016 06:56

This Telegraph article from 16 months ago is shocking in showing how quickly the country's mood has changed:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11622192/The-unsayable-truth-about-immigration-its-been-a-stunning-success-for-Britain.html

'Immigration concern has the far-Right on the march all over the continent; in Britain it has just been extinguished..... Where are the xenophobes? You can search in vain for the racist political movements that scar the continent. ...Ukip ...give[s] concerned voters a stridently non-racist option to express their concern. Britain is facing plenty of major concerns, but racism just isn't one of them.... The U.K.... so open-minded as to be colour blind.'

Although this must have been slightly inaccurate at the time, in its glowing assessment of public opinion, it does frighten me that you simply could not write this now. But there will be a backlash, as people gradually realise that the Govt does not, and can not, speak for all the varied groups of people it claims to.
The volume of intelligent concern and outrage on social media must find an outlet.
The current rhetoric feeds off fear, and this is an unhealthily negative way to build a country.

merrymouse · 07/10/2016 07:03

Thanks for answering my earlier question red.

I also listened to the latest Spectator politics podcast:

itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-spectator/id793236670?mt=2&i=376275567

Which includes a discussion about the Tory conference. Fraser Nelson (spectator editor) is enthusiastic about the conference appealing to middle England and party members. Theresa May is speaking to her people at Tory Conference (age, interests, background).

However, he does seem a bit flummoxed by the Amber Rudd speech and general insularity - not happy about listing foreign employees. He also doesn't like the promise of increased government intervention.

CeciledeVolanges · 07/10/2016 07:26

Hester "stridently non-racist option"?!

Me2017 · 07/10/2016 07:38

Hester, I don't agree the UK has changed on immigration. Most British people live in harmony with others. I don't see racism around me at least not to the extent of many other places. We remain a tolerant place. We haven't moved from tolerance to race riots and punching foreigners in the UK. Yes, there have been the occasional incidents but nothing major. It will all be fine.

Peregrina · 07/10/2016 07:44

I would imagine that Party Conferences normally only attract the keenest members, so they tend to be the more zealous in what they believe. I am quite sure that Tory Conferences have always had someone, somewhere spouting racist bile. One difference now is that it has moved from the fringe meetings to the centre - yes that is you Amber Rudd.

Another difference is that substantial numbers of the 48% have not gone away and have not accepted Brexit, and the torrent of xenophobia it has unleashed, and are now publicising every statement made. Hence Rudd has to start backtracking quickly saying, it was only an idea, and cleansing her facebook page. However embarrassed you are at being caught out Rudd, you made racist comments and you can't unsay them now.

Peregrina · 07/10/2016 07:47

Yes, there have been the occasional incidents but nothing major. It will all be fine.

Go and tell that to Jo Cox's children - it wasn't murder, it was only an incident, you will grow up motherless, but don't worry, it will be fine.

TheElementsSong · 07/10/2016 07:57

Yes, there have been the occasional incidents but nothing major. It will all be fine.

YY Pere and Arek Jowzik and the Polish man beaten up in Leeds and the families that have had shit posted through their letter boxes... Not major at all Hmm

merrymouse · 07/10/2016 07:57

Fraser Nelson wrote that Telegraph article - he isn't sounding so confident about tolerance now!

HesterThrale · 07/10/2016 08:03

Cecile I know! See how Ukip's been exposed this year? And they can't even conduct themselves with dignity and professionalism in the EU parliament building. They're a disgrace and an embarrassment.

Peregrina · 07/10/2016 08:04

I was in fact shocked to read your post Me2017 , that you could dismiss murder as an 'incident'.

merrymouse · 07/10/2016 08:08

punching foreigners in the UK.

No, apparently it is more the thing to wait until you are surrounded by foreigners and punch each other in Strasbourg.

Nigel Farage says:

"I won’t be on the inquiry myself. I suspect it will blow over and be looked back upon as one of these things that happens between men"

These are thugs who can barely talk to each other, but they have pushed their agenda to the mainstream.

HesterThrale · 07/10/2016 08:13

Yes merry - 'thugs... mainstream'. It reminds me of Trump.

Corcory · 07/10/2016 08:31

There have definitely been some dreadful racist incidents recently including the murder of a polish man and some other hideous incidents. These idiots do not represent the majority of British people and I pride myself in being extremely tolerant as do all the people I know. I do not think the murder of Jo Cox was a 'racist' incident. It was the act of a mad deranged individual who does not represent the views of the British people.

My hope is that we return to our very tolerant society when we see Brexit having been agreed and that the questions that surround immigration have been settled. When it becomes quite clear that we will not be deporting all the 'foreigners' and that we will still welcome immigrants from all over the world, I hope that will put an end to this idea that 'they' should all go home!